Grapejuice Evangelicalism teaches that Christ’s first miracle was not turning jars of water into wine at a wedding banquet he attended, but instead turning those jars of water into grapejuice.
The essence of Who Jesus is, and the reason why he came, was to shed his blood, which Christ offered to his disciples by way of a cup of wine, that we should do this in remembrance of Who he is, and what he would do for those who would eventually believe. Grapejuice Evangelicalism has twisted this very thing and claims that Christ gave his disciples grapejuice, and Yeshua HaMashiach Himself is in fact against drinking wine or strong drink, not just the abuse of them thereof. So they have substituted grapejuice for real wine, and leavened bread for unleavened bread.
But that is not the only denial of truth that this Movement has espoused, cultivated and spread across the globe.
Many in this Movement claim one or more of the following doctrinal errors. Some of these errors hit directly at Who Christ really is, and for what reason Christ walked the earth about two thousand years ago. I have given no importance to the order I have presented below.
- Believe sex is a necessary evil. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim.
- Believe sex acts are only acceptable in very few ways or positions. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim.
- Believe all sex acts other than vaginal intercourse are sin. Read the above answer for #2 to refute this claim.
- Believe enjoyment of sex is bad. Read the above answer for #1 to refute this claim.
- Believe women do not have to be subject to their husbands, except in ”church” settings where the preaching about the subject is in all practicality really in jest. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim.
- Believe women can have short hair. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim.
- Believe men can have long hair (long enough to touch the shoulders). Read the above answer for #6 to refute this claim.
- Believe once a person has been “saved,” they cannot lose their salvation. But the Word of God contained in this link causes us to refute this claim.
- Believe it is good to purchase, use and/or display the likenesses of Angels in church settings, on Christmas trees, and in their homes without the express consent of God. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim. The Word of God contained in this link also helps to refute this claim.
- Believe that the presence of the likenesses of Angels is good and God favors such things. Read the above answer for #9 to refute this claim.
- Believe that the presence of the likenesses of Angels helps them against the Kingdom of Darkness. Read above answer for #9 to refute this claim.
- Believe it is good to say all manner of pronouncements against evil beings contrary to what is allowed in the holy scriptures for man to say. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim.
- Believe that the “church” functions best when gathered together to have G.E. “church services” with other like-minded Grapejuice Evangelicals to hear what their itching ears want to hear, sing songs that they don’t really understand and/or mean when they sing them, and then go about to greet one another as they head towards the exit doors. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute that claim.
- Believe that speaking in “tongues” was only meant for the early church. See above answer for #13 to refute this claim.
- Believe such “services” are best when served up with grapejuice and solemn resolve to take the Lord’s communion without regard to what they do, or the consequences of those actions thereof. But the Word of God contained in this link, plus this of the Word of God causes us to refute this claim.
- Believe that people should direct church services and the Holy Spirit follow their lead, instead of the Holy Spirit leading church services, and the people following His lead. See above answer for #13 to refute this claim.
- Believe the rules of a denomination or body of believers are superior to the leadership of the Holy Spirit when they meet together for their “church” services. See above answer for #13 to refute this claim.
- Believe that Christ will “rapture” all true Grapejuice Evangelicals – even those in other like-minded denominations – out of this world before the 7-year Great Tribulation Period. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim. I believe this and this may also help in the cause to refute this claim.
- Do not believe that the first part of the Great Tribulation Period is Satan’s wrath, but instead, God’s wrath. See above answer for #18 to refute this claim.
- Believe they are the true “Jews” or “Hebrews” because of “what Christ did” - even though they were Gentiles before their conversions. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim.
- Do not believe that a person can commit an unpardonable sin such as “blasphemy” against the Holy Spirit. But the Word of God contained in this link causes us to refute this claim.
- Do not believe Believers should fear the LORD. But the Word of God contained in this link causes us to refute this claim.
- Believe they are guaranteed salvation already. But the Word of God contained in this, this, this, this, this, this and this link causes us to refute this claim.
- Believe being “born again” means to publicly or privately pray to God for forgiveness, but without being baptised until you believe it is just an outward act to demonstrate your true, previous conversion from Darkness to Light by prayer only. But the Word of God contained in this link causes us to refute this claim.
- Believe being a member or regular attendee of a Grapejuice Evangelical body of believers, giving money to such body, and feeling “good” after attending their functions, gives you confidence that you are becoming more and more spiritual and are storing up for yourselves treasures in Heaven. See above answer for #13 to refute this claim.
- Believe that when Christ said to pick up a cross and follow him, Jesus really didn’t mean literally to do this - back then or now - and he surely didn’t mean we should have the same resolve to love one another as he did for us when he picked up his cross and died for us. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim.
- Believe in the use of a cross only for the purpose of showing what Christ did on it for mankind, not what Jesus said to his disciples - some of whom died on crosses or in some other other fashion for the Kingdom of Heaven - how they should do exactly as he did. See above answer to #26 to refute this claim.
- Don’t believe Christ will battle up to a 200,000,000-man army or more of the Anti-Christ when he returns to earth to judge the goats and the sheep. But the Word of God says this to cause us to reject their belief.
- Believe that even if someone – whether he is a non-believer, or especially if he is a believer – preaches a different gospel than the one Paul - the writer of most of the New Testament – preached, he cannot be eternally condemned. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim.
- Believe that God “loves” everyone right now in this age of grace. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim.
- Believe that God would never eternally punish a human being with everlasting punishment that never ends. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim. This link can also help to refute this claim.
- Believe that being involved in politics is basically evil. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim.
- Believe that it is not very important to help elect people to positions of power in government to govern us with wisdom and equal justice for all. See above answer to #32 to refute this claim.
- Believe that Jesus Christ is NOT part of the Godhead, of which is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute their claim.
- Believe that using certain birth control methods that can cause death for an unborn child is not murder. But the Word of God contained in this link causes us to refute this claim.
- Believe that using methods to induce a human being’s death through abortion techniques, methods and/or technology is not murder. But the Word of God contained in this link causes us to refute this claim.
- Believe that it is OK to take the name of the LORD in vain. But the Word of God contained in this link causes us to refute this claim.
- Believe tithing is commanded in the New Testament - and condemn those who don’t follow their edict about this matter. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim.
- Believe that Christians should observe Sabbath Days, Holy Days and/or other certain rules and/or regulations found in the Law of Moses. But the Word of God says this to cause us to refute this claim.
- Believe women can become preachers, teachers, pastors, evangelists, deacons and bishops of the churches of Jesus Christ. But the Word of God contained in this article causes us to refute this claim.
- Believe they can rest on their laurels and their current Grapejuice Evangelicalism in order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Read the above answers to all the above questions to refute this claim.
Filed under: Abortion, Christians, Evangelicals, God, Islamofascism, Israel, Jesus Christ, Liberalism, Satan, Terrorism, al-Queda, bible, eternal life, heaven, hell, homosexuality, news, prophesy, religion, sex | Tagged: Gospel of Christ, Grapejuice Evangelicalism, Jesus Christ, Law of Moses, Sabbath Days, Yeshua Ben Josef, Yeshua HaMashiach
Have you been wondering who is responsible for the bank crisis and the failure of Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac? Every voting age American should be required to watch this video. The video is from 2004 Congressional hearings about regulating Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac. You will see Republicans pointing out problems and calling for more regulation of Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac. You will see Barney Frank, Maxine Waters and other Democrats denying there is a problem and criticizing the regulators and Republicans for trying to prevent the upcoming crisis. If this video doesn’t make you ashamed to be a member of the Democratic Party, nothing will.
Proof positive that democrats are responsible for bank crisis
[...] Believe being a member or regular attendee of a Grapejuice Evangelical body of believers, giving money to such body, and feeling “good” after attending their functions, gives you confidence that you are becoming more and more spiritual …[Continue Reading] [...]
I’m not sure what your getting at here. It sounds like your attacking those who believe Jesus turned water into grapejuice?
I like the novel “this” approach to quoting scripture. I like the catchy title “grapejuice evangelicalism”. For comments to be encouraged, you need to pick a single thought and talk about it. There is too much information to form a thought for comment. But great job of communicating!
brooksrobinson,
He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”
Scripture says, “If you hear God speak today, don’t be stubborn. Don’t be stubborn like those who rebelled.”
Archie,
The days are going to come, declares the Almighty LORD, when I will send a famine throughout the land. It won’t be an ordinary famine or drought. Instead, there will be a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.
Ephesians 5 1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.
3 But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them; 8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light 9 (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. 14 For this reason it says,
“Awake, sleeper,
And arise from the dead,
And Christ will shine on you.”
15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, 16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil. 17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
your tone is not very winsome.
are you agitated or zealous or nervouse?
would you do us the service of calmly giving an exegetical response to the following website:
http://www.monergism.com with respect to Point Number 8
mark,
“your tone is not very winsome.
are you agitated or zealous or nervouse?”
Who say to the seers, “You must not see visions”; And to the prophets, “You must not prophesy to us what is right, Speak to us pleasant words, Prophesy illusions.
His speech was smoother than butter,
But his heart was war;
His words were softer than oil,
Yet they were drawn swords.
Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. 18 For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.
He who hates disguises it with his lips,
But he lays up deceit in his heart.
25 When he speaks graciously, do not believe him,
For there are seven abominations in his heart.
26 Though his hatred covers itself with guile,
His wickedness will be revealed before the assembly.
“For ships of Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 “Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation. 32 “By smooth words he will turn to godlessness those who act wickedly toward the covenant, but the people who know their God will display strength and take action. 33 “Those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many; yet they will fall by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plunder for many days. 34 “Now when they fall they will be granted a little help, and many will join with them in hypocrisy. 35 “Some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, purge and make them pure until the end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time.
There is nothing reliable in what they say;
Their inward part is destruction itself.
Their throat is an open grave;
They flatter with their tongue.
10 Hold them guilty, O God;
By their own devices let them fall!In the multitude of their transgressions thrust them out,
For they are rebellious against You.
As for the prophets:
My heart is broken within me,
All my bones tremble;
I have become like a drunken man,
Even like a man overcome with wine,
Because of the LORD
And because of His holy words.
10 For the land is full of adulterers;
For the land mourns because of the curse.
The pastures of the wilderness have dried up.
Their course also is evil
And their might is not right.
11 “For both prophet and priest are polluted;
Even in My house I have found their wickedness,” declares the LORD.
12 “Therefore their way will be like slippery paths to them,
They will be driven away into the gloom and fall down in it;
For I will bring calamity upon them,
The year of their punishment,” declares the LORD.
With her many persuasions she entices him;
With her flattering lips she seduces him.
22 Suddenly he follows her
As an ox goes to the slaughter,
Or as one in fetters to the discipline of a fool,
23 Until an arrow pierces through his liver;
As a bird hastens to the snare,
So he does not know that it will cost him his life.
A man who flatters his neighbor
Is spreading a net for his steps.
A lying tongue hates those it crushes,
And a flattering mouth works ruin.
Help, LORD, for the godly man ceases to be,
For the faithful disappear from among the sons of men.
2 They speak falsehood to one another;
With flattering lips and with a double heart they speak.
For you yourselves know, brethren, that our coming to you was not in vain, 2 but after we had already suffered and been mistreated in Philippi, as you know, we had the boldness in our God to speak to you the gospel of God amid much opposition. 3 For our exhortation does not come from error or impurity or by way of deceit; 4 but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who examines our hearts. 5 For we never came with flattering speech, as you know, nor with a pretext for greed—God is witness—
He who rebukes a man will afterward find more favor
Than he who flatters with the tongue.
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
And clever in their own sight!
“would you do us the service of calmly giving an exegetical response to the following website:
http://www.monergism.com with respect to Point Number 8″
For the time will come when people will not tolerate healthy doctrine, but with itching ears will surround themselves with teachers who cater to their people’s own desires.
lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.
and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?
I agree that Jesus changed water into wine, not grape juice. I’ve heard the arguments that in the New Testament “wine” is really grape juice, but they aren’t convincing.
When they called Jesus a drunkard and a glutton, they probably just caught Him on a bad day.
Deny,
so you are nervous and agitated?
perhaps my request was too vague.
i meant pick a doctrine from the website http://www.monergism.com and exegete a counter argument.
what you gave is not exegesis. you quoted a passage that does nothing more than spew accusations.
more specifically, exegete a rebuttal to: 2 Timothy 2:13
try to focus on one train of thought.
yes, most of the church is full of stale wet bags of sand .
and i meant winsom, not flattering
According to Rom. 14, I should have patience with my overly conservative or liberal brothers.
Paul said he would quit eating meat altogether if it caused another to fall.
Acts tells us that after going all out to have circumcision declared meaningless, Paul IN THE NEXT VERSE, circumcizes Timothy.
The scriptures give me this example of giving in, even when I am scriptually right. This is hard teaching.
I want to condemn those more liberal than myself and dismiss as foolish those more conservative than myself. These attitudes are SPECIFICALLY instructed against in Rom. 14.1-5.
What relationships in my life are more important to me than who is right or wrong on a list of issues that I will have normally wrongly exalted as being above relationship.
Jesus tells us to abandon our gift at the altar if we have something against our brother. I believe Jesus is saying that relationships are MORE important than worshipping God. I struggle with this concept.
I don’t want to give in even when I am wrong, much less when I am actually right.
God tells me if I stick to my guns, then all that is left is me and my guns. Having relationships with people is the most challenging aspect of Jesus’ message.
Can I completely disagree with people on VERY important issues and not dismiss them as idiots or condemn to hell for their errors?
I’m working on it.
Jackie,
Mark 12 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; 30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’
Deuteronomy 11:1 “You shall therefore love the LORD your God, and always keep His charge, His statutes, His ordinances, and His commandments.
Deuteronomy 6:5 “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Luke10:27 He answered, “You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
Matthew 10 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 “For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36 and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
Proverbs 21:3 To do righteousness and justice Is desired by the LORD more than sacrifice.
Hosea 6:6 For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
Matthew 5 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. 23 “Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25 “Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 “Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.
1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
1 Timothy 5:20 As for those who keep on sinning, rebuke them in front of everyone so that the rest will also be afraid.
Matthew 18:15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
2 Timothy 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
Luke 17:3 “Watch yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
Ecclesiastes 7:5 It is better to listen to wise people who reprimand you than to fools who sing your praises.
Titus 2:15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
Titus 1 For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. 12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
1 Thessalonians 5:14 We encourage you, brothers and sisters, to instruct those who are not living right, cheer up those who are discouraged, help the weak, and be patient with everyone.
Revelation 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Jeremiah 2:19 “Your own wickedness will correct you, And your apostasies will reprove you; Know therefore and see that it is evil and bitter For you to forsake the LORD your God, And the dread of Me is not in you,” declares the Lord GOD of hosts.
Galatians 5:6 As far as our relationship to Christ Jesus is concerned, it doesn’t matter whether we are circumcised or not. But what matters is a faith that expresses itself through love.
2 Thessalonians 3:14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.
1 Corinthians 14:38 Whoever thinks that he speaks for God or that he is spiritually gifted must acknowledge that what I write to you is what the Lord commands. 38 But whoever ignores what I write should be ignored.
Luke 14:26 “If people come to me and are not ready to abandon their fathers, mothers, wives, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as their own lives, they cannot be my disciples.
2 John 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
mark,
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul and spirit, joints and marrow, as it judges the thoughts and purposes of the heart.
Romans 14 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. 6 But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment.
Titus 3 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
denny,
i agree with you.
however, you did not answer how 2 Timothy 2:13 fails to contradict the position that you have previously stated.
you have asserted that we can lose our salvation.
2 Timothy 2:13 say that even if we are faithless, He will still save us. This seems to parallel Romans 9.
Could you comment more to the point here?
Thanks,
I too, believe that we can lose our salvation.
He will not lose any of us, but (a big but)…we can walk away from Him. He will not force us to stay in the relationship.
The world, our sinful flesh, and the devil are at work trying to rip us away from Christ and make us not trust in Him and abandon Him.
Christ will bring us back, but there is probably a point where He allows our rejection of Him to stand. I don’t know where that point is, but the scriptures allude to this. ‘The seed that sprouts but withers away from shallow roots’ type of language.
Also the whole ’spiritual warfare’ language.
There is a battle for our souls.
Thanks be to God that Christ wants us and is after us also.
theoldadam,
but if God is only pleased with faith, then according to 2 Timothy 2:13, even without faith, He will be faithful to me… This sounds like a classic case of Romans/Calvanism and predestination.
which is worse not having faith and being a slave to sin or having faith and commiting the sin of running away(being faithless)?
—
Where is this in scripture:
“He will not lose any of us, but (a big but)…we can walk away from Him. He will not force us to stay in the relationship.”
Specifically “He will not force”
—
Romans 9 clearly indicate God’s “forceful” influence upon Pharo’s heart?right?
Like I stated earlier, the parable of the seed thrower.
Also, the scriptures speak of the Jews that cut themselves off from God.
Were they not children of God also?
The scriptures speak of the unforgivable sin…the sin against the Holy Spirit. Since I’m not the Holy Spirit I can’t say exactly what that might be…but He knows what it is.
As a Lutheran, I believe this because it also keeps me from taking God for granted. It keeps me in a relationship and not a business contract, ie, God has to keep me. it preserves the freedom of God to be God and do what He wills to do.
I think of my relationship with my own children.
There is absolutely nothing they can do wherein I will cut them off from myself…nothing.
But they can walk out of my life and never come back. I wouldn’t lock them up in a room and force them to stay in the relationship.
If they come back after 20 years, of course, I will take them back.
I do believe that the Holy Spirit is active in keeping us from leaving but the devil is also active in his work.
theoldadam,
but would you not agree with me that:
neither Pharo or Esau really had a “choice” in the free sense. rather, God tokk them in a undeserving sinful condition and used that sinful condition to His glory, but by means that denied them freedom to become objects of mercy?
Yes, I would agree.
God is certainly free to do what He will do.
But I like to look (have learned to look at it) at the issue the way I spoke of it to preserve God’s freedom and to keep me from taking anything for granted.
Great topic! I appreciate your views, Mark!
thanks for the charitable conversation.
you can probably tell from my line of reasoning that I am a reformed puritan of sorts.
i have found that my 1 year old son is the best embodiment of scripture as far as a child relating to his Father.
but I am fascinated with how little I have control over- not even my productivity at work. Sometimes I ask our Father if he would give me the answer and in 15mins or so there it is. There are some proverbs to this effect, that He directs the minds of the kings to go which way he wants.
all in all, i want less control for me to exert and more suppleness in my flesh to His “working in me to will and act according to His plan.”
Mark,
I am envious (I know I’m sinning) of you that you have a one year old boy.
What wonderful and joyus times you are having and will yet have. God bless you and your family.
“He must increase, I must decrease.” Great advice for all of us in realtionship to our Father.
Take care, my friend, and thanks for a terrific discussion.
– Steve Martin San Clemente, CA
mark,
Since you have demonstrated to me that you want the truth, I will talk to you plainly.
I was previously one of the worst hypocrites I know of. I have hurt many people and used to be one of the worst believing sinners I know of. I thought that I could serve two masters, even though the holy bible teaches otherwise. I say these things to you so that you don’t think of me of anything but a lowly, depraved person who has been granted mercy by God for the purpose of giving ALL glory, honor and praise to God.
The ONE thing Christians are missing is their FEAR of God. This is party because of the heresy of the false doctrine of eternal security.
I used to be a grapejuice evangelical who agreed with much of what I have written against with this blog entry. It is ONLY the fear of God that brought me back to my senses to STOP sinning.
As you have heard, the fear of God is the BEGINNING of wisdom. Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you to reveal Himself.
I believe that God has revealed to me that most of so-called Christianity in the West in preaching a false Gospel. I have given what I believe are their most grievious doctrinal errors for all to see in this post.
When the bible refers to those that are led by the Holy Spirit, it is talking about moment-by-moment living through His leadership. Being “in Christ” means that you are NOW (NOT even 2 minutes ago or more) following the Spirit of God. This is what it means in Galatians 6:1 (Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.) and James 5: 19 (My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.) and possibly 1 Peter 4: 8 (Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.).
When we are prideful, we say WE have done such and such righteousness IN OUR PAST. This attitude is one that puffeth us up and does NOT give God ALL the glory, honor and praise He so richly deserves. If we have done ANYTHING for God, it is God that did those things through us. So why do we take the glory, honor and praise?
When we say we are “saved” and begin to rest and rely upon our past deeds, we are NOT living for God NOW. This is pride of which God WILL oppose. When we CONTINUALLY understand that we do NOT deserve ANY GOOD THING WHATSOEVER because of what we have done by sinning against God, then we will continue to have a humble heart that doesn’t boast.
The price for ONE sin was that God sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish. His Son took our past sins away after we believed in Him and received the baptism the bible speaks about. Most grapejuice evangelicals do not even believe that baptism is what saves a person. This is another of their doctrinal errors, of which they have many. They simply distort these scriptures like they do many others.
2 Timothy 2:10
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. 11 It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
If you can clear your mind of all the false doctrine of eternal security (this was very hard for me to do since I was in this Movement for many years), you will plainly see that Paul is talking about bringing BELIEVERS to the point of salvation and eternal glory. He then goes on to say that we believers who have ALREADY been “saved” must endure, because if we don’t and we end up denying Him, He WILL deny us. The final verse simply is stating that Christ cannot deny Himself, even though a person denies Him.
When the bible states in 1 Peter 4:18 {AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?}, I believe it is talking about those who have followed God and then turned back and died in that state of rebellion towards God. NONE of the righteous things they have done will be remembered, as the scripture teaches. There is another reason why we are to make our CALLING and ELECTION sure. Jesus Christ WARNED us in the beginning of the book of Revelation to OVERCOME, or else we would NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
I beseech thee to REPENT NOW if you hear His voice. Notice the bible DOES use the word IF in conjunction with this command.
By the way, when a person CHOOSES to repent, it is the ONLY time (I know of) that the bible ever talks about God running. He fills the universe, so He does not have to run. But that is how much He wants to love YOU.
Denny,
That was not exactly what I meant by exegesis.
How do you explain the aparent tension between:
“If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
”
Denial would be an expression of the absence of faith, that is faithless.
But I do agree with you that the jesus most peole think they believe in is emasculated.
Yes, if you hear his voice, only His sheep hear His voice.
The entire book of Romans is saturated with Soveriengty and the fixity of things through predestination.
Do you believe in free-will gains you forgiveness when you will to chose him(romans 9:16)?
TheOldAdam,
Christ, Christ Crucified, Christ Resurrected.
The power of God in Humility. The authority of God to lay down His life and to pick it up again.
Kindest Regards,
Mark Putnam (Columbia,SC/NovaScotia, CAN)
http://www.tortoiseandsnail.blogspot.com
[...] Comments ‘Once Saved Al… on The Fear of the Lord… on mark on Grapejuice Evangelicalism Vers…mark on Grapejuice Evangelicalism Vers…Denny on Grapejuice Evangelicalism [...]
Denny, I replied to your comment. Thanks for reading!
The early Pentecostal Christians in America (after 1906) believed that it was a sin to drink wine or any alcoholic drink, but they had no problem with drinking coffee.
Some of the American leaders went to France and spent time with a group of French Pentecostal believers. They almost swallowed their tongues (pun intended) when they found out that the French believers drank wine, but thought that it was sin to drink coffee.
Whether we want to admit it not, some of our so-called biblical stances have some quirks in them that need to be ironed out.
Thank God, He has a hot iron and is working on our wrinkles..
Hi Denny, thanks for your comment on my blog (http://capturedbyGod.wordpress.com). I agree with some of what you are saying and not with others. We imperfect humans are always going to disagree about the details. What is really important is not to get lost in the details, causing arguments and divisiveness, but to remember the big picture. Jesus loves us and died for us, and He has called us to love each other. This verse came to mind:
“But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.” Titus 3:9
Bless you! Jenny
Denny,
You asked my opinion. First of all I am one who believes that Jesus turned water into the purest of pure “wine” that has ever been. It was not alcoholic or He would be violating His own teaching in wisdom.
Proverbs 23 “Look not on the wine when it is red; when it moveth itself aright in the cup” this means when it is alcoholic.
I will not call you a heretic or wrong for believing that, therefore I call on you to respect your brothers who don’t believe as you do.
This is not a doctrinal matter dealing with eternity.
On the matter of the sexual issues it seems you may be trying to approve of things you feel guilty for.
God has ordained sex, within marriage, and between a man and a woman.
I am not a grapejuice evangelical, but a New Wine Baptist.
If you would like you can check my articles on Beverage Alcohol.
I don’t know your age, but you need to be cautious about condemning others who don’t agree with you in the realms of some doctrines.
T.A.
Denny,
for some reason the link I gave here didn’t work so Here goes again.
try this Beverage Alcohol
Great stuff. It is very insightful and refreshing.
kevriley,
Thanks for responding. But I do not remember your blog. Could you leave it with us?
Thanks,
777denny
Denny,
You asked me for a comment on your blog piece. There is too much here to deal with. I’m not sure what it is you wnt me to comment on in particular.
I would suggest you listen to my Feb. 12th radio show in which we will be discussing prophecy and current events.
You can set a remind me button at this link: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/nocompromise
The call in number is 646-200-4641. You won’t want to miss this show if you are end to End Time Prophecy.
Thanks, Tracy from No Compromise when it comes to being Right!
http://gto7.wordpress.com
Larry Who,
Thanks for responding.
777denny
Given that grape juice ferments, and it ferments faster in warm temperatures than cool ones, it is incontrovertible, it would seem, that God gave wine to gladden the hearts of men.
Tim A.,
777denny
snowthoughts,
Thanks for the kudos. Please stay close to sound doctrine and REFUSE ALL false doctrine.
777denny
frmike,
You are correct.
777denny
I don’t believe that the GE Christians believe that the first miracle was to turn water to grapejuice. Are you critical of Christians who substitute grape juice for wine during communion? Why would this be an invalid celebration? The view that one takes of the holy table is going to affect the choice of cup/cups, wine/juice, and leavened or unleavened bread. Many protestants understand the Eucharist as a symbolic or memorial event since the Spirit already resides within. Therefore, substitutions are acceptable. Others take practice of Lord’s table as literal instructions.
The question then is – if this pattern is to be taken literally, then every single passage of the Bible must be taken and practiced literally. Missing even a single one seems to make one a hypocrite.
Doulos Christou,
If AFTER you have read my blog entry HERE about this subject – including the links provided – and still think that we can substitute grapejuice for wine and leavened bread for unleavened bread, then why not go all the way and substitute wine for plain water or even soda? Why not substitute unleavened bread for pizza or peanuts? Jesus gave us the answer:
If you search, you will find Jesus did things for very specific reasons.
There is a VERY SPECIFIC reason WHY He chose WINE and unleavened bread if you care to find out.
777denny
This is a LONG list of false teachings. Is there really any one group that believes in every single one of these? As far as I can tell (and I admit to not reading each one and/or checking the links) each thing on this list of 38 is in error. At the very least, we can’t be certain. Sexual positions? I think we’re getting into Godpel + Law if were saying this position is sinful, but this one is not. I would say the Grapejuice people are legalists, and leave it at that. Paul said all things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable.
Jesus turned water into wine. The same Greek word used for wine in the first miracle story is used in Acts when the Apostles are accused of being drunk on “new wine.” I have no problem drinking grape juice during the communion service; that’s why the Welch’s company was started, believe it or not. But don’t make Jesus into a T-totaler. That’s a recent innovation (19th century) and basically limited to America. To claim that New Testament Christians did not drink wine is revisionist history.
I too, don’t think Jesus was a tea -totaler, otherwise the Pharisees would not have referred to Him as a drunkard and a glutton.
Clark Bunch,
I think you are agreeing with me.
I don’t think there is one group of Grapejuice Evangelicals that believe ALL of those false doctrines.
Thanks for leaving your comment.
777denny
steve martin,
That is true.
The bible cleary teaches that if something like wine offends a brother we are associated with, we should NOT drink it so that he doesn’t stumble. But this is NOT talking about the Lord’s supper. Jesus did things in a very specific manner for very specific reasons.
Thanks for leaving your comment,
777denny
Denny,
Right on!
It (the Lord’s supper) ought be conducted in a manner as if He were really there…which He is.
Otherwise it would just be a “religious” ritual.
He is there for us in the breaking of the bread and the drinking of the wine (or grapejuice).
At our church we take this so seriously that we deny people the right to partake in it if they do not believe that Jesus is really there in the sacrament for us.
steve martin,
What state do you live in? Seems like at least a half-way decent place to worship. One of the very few.
777denny
Denny,
It’s a great place to worship…only because the focus is on Him and not on us.
And because our pastor uses the law to knock us off our high horses, so it helps to keep us from getting upity (self-righteous).
Southern California, near Newport Beach.
steve martin,
Will you allow me to e-mail you sometime?
777denny
Denny,
Anytime. I’d love to speak with you about our faith or anything else you wanted to talk about.
His blessings to you my Friend!
– Steve
Denny,
It sounds like your well on the way to becoming a zealous Catholic… I’m serious.
I believe all here would agree that the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ is ordered toward deep interior conversion of the heart. And that this is accomplished through the Holy Spirit… In fact, all the mysteries of this holy and many-splendored Christian faith of ours are found therein, in the person of the Holy Spirit, the helper; and they are given to us in accord to God’s will for His people–that we should be “holy.” “All Holy”
Many of your tribulations concerning previous sins, the right ordering of faith, sound doctrine, and even grape juice would be put to rest with just such an concrete experience of the Holy Spirit, Who would lead you (through the Word) into the Holy Sacraments, and above all, the summit of Christian life: The Most Holy Eucharist:
Christ Jesus Himself.
If you allow yourself to be led by the Spirit of love into all truth, as Jesus promised, you will discover I am not lying–for He takes the things of Christ and presents them to us…
I am not a Protestant convert to Catholicism, but a former Atheist enemy of the Cross, of Jesus Christ, His Catholic Church, and all who call themselves Christian–I was wrong… Dead wrong, nearly in body and soul.
To say the least I am learning the meaning of loving much for having been forgiven much… Not by blood alone, but by blood and water have I been led by the Word made flesh, to the word, and thus to His true presence within the Eucharist discovered within the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church…
These truths are truths leading to “sound doctrine” that the Holy Spirit will not REFUSE to reveal… As It is He Himself Who brings about the pure oblation that is the Most Holy Eucharist upon the Altars of the world from the rising to the setting of the sun…
Not being a Protestant convert I recognize that there are long-held generational conflicts between Protestants and Catholics; (all this in my opinion is the greatest victory of our shared Adversary to this point in time) So, I will leave you with the words of another former Protestant who converted, that you might consider his article on your journey towards absolute truth…
For your peace,
james mary evans
http://www.fratres.wordpress.com
The Institution of the Eucharist in Scripture
from a talk by Scott Hahn
The Catholic Church claims that Christ is really present in the Eucharist, that the sacrifice of calvary is repeated at every Mass, and that he gives Himself to us in Holy Communion as food unto eternal life.
With this in mind, let’s look at Scripture. Luke 22, verse 15, our Lord says, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you.” So we are assured that the Last Supper in the Upper Room was a Passover meal. In Mark 14, verses 22 through 26, we hear the words of institution, “And as they were eating He took bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them and said, ‘Take, this is my body.’ And He took a cup and when He had given thanks, He gave it to them and they drank all of it and He said to them, ‘This is my blood of the New Covenant which is poured out for many. Truly I say to you, I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.’”
You could also say it this way: that if the Passover isn’t finished until Calvary, I would suggest that Calvary is really begun in the Upper Room with the Eucharist. When does Jesus’ sacrifice really begin? Well, He insists on the fact that His life is not being taken away from Him. He is laying it down. Now in the trial, in the passion, it’s being taken away; but in the Upper Room, prior to all of that, Jesus lays it down. He says, “This is my body. This cup is the blood of the New Covenant.”
What happens when you differentiate and separate body and blood? You signify death. When your body and your blood are separated, death begins. That’s obvious, I think. So Jesus is symbolically and actually beginning the sacrifice. St. Augustine has said that Our Lord held himself in his own hands and commenced the sacrifice of the New Covenant Passover as He was transforming the old. Calvary really began in the Old Testament Passover being celebrated in the Upper Room, when the Eucharist was instituted and the Passover Eucharist of the New Covenant really isn’t over until Calvary, when He says, “It is finished.”
No wonder St. Paul says in 1st Corinthians 5, “Christ, our Passover, has been sacrificed for us.” Therefore, what? Therefore we don’t have any more sacrificial offerings or ceremonies or feasts and so on to celebrate because all those ceremonies are outdated and done with? No. He says, “Christ, our Passover, has been sacrificed; therefore, let us keep the feast.” And he goes on to talk about how we take out the leaven of insincerity and we have this unleavened bread. What’s he talking about? Christ, our Passover has been sacrificed; therefore, we’ve got to achieve the whole goal of that sacrifice, the second half is communion where we eat the lamb.
Now you can’t eat a lamb cookie in Egypt. If you didn’t like lamb, you couldn’t have your wife make lamb bread, little biscuits in the shape of a lamb and say, “God, you understand, we just can’t stand the stuff.” No, you do that, your firstborn would die. You had to eat the lamb. Jesus Christ has said to us, “My flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life.”
Let’s turn to John 6 and see the context in which he says that. John 6, verse 4 tells us, “Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews was at hand.” So everything that transpires within John 6 is within the context of the Passover. Jesus is talking to them now. At the time of the Passover, after multiplying these loaves, ending up filling twelve baskets with the fragments from the five barley loaves, He uses that as his point of departure for one of the most important sermons that He ever preaches and also one of the most disastrous from a human perspective.
He goes on talking about this bread and He goes on talking about Moses in context with that bread. For instance, in verse 32, “Jesus then said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven. My Father gives you the true bread from heaven, for the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.’ They said to him, ‘Lord, give us this bread always.’” Welfare state! “Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life. He who comes to me shall not hunger and he who believes in me shall not thirst.’” And He goes on talking about this some more. The Jews would then murmur at him in verse 41 because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”
They’re thinking, “What is He talking about? This guy is Joseph’s son. How does He say, ‘I’ve come down from heaven?’” They only look at it from a human perspective. They don’t see that He’s the divine Son of God. Verse 47, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven.’”
How often did they eat the manna? Every day. How often do we receive the Bread of Life? Every day. This is not a once for all sacrifice, like many anti-Catholics allege in the sense that Christ is sacrificed and now there’s nothing more to be done. Jesus Christ is sacrificed as priest and as victim, as lamb and as firstborn son and as the Bread of Life, he gives himself to us as well as the unleavened bread of the Passover meal, which commenced, of course, the whole feast of unleavened bread the week after the Passover celebration. Jesus Christ is the Bread of Life, the unleavened bread of God which came down from heaven which the Israelites received every day, the manna of the New Covenant.
Christ through the Holy Spirit makes himself available as the Lamb of God to be consumed continuously. That’s the whole point of the Resurrection, incidentally. The Holy Spirit raises up that body and glorifies it so supernaturally that body and blood which is glorified may be internationally distributed through the elders and priests of the Church so that all of God’s children can be bound back to the Father in the New Covenant sacrifice of Christ. He didn’t die again. He’s not bleeding and he’s not suffering. He’s reigning in glory and giving us his own flesh and blood.
Where do you get that? From the Old Testament — the manna, the Passover, the sacrifice as it’s described on Calvary as it’s initiated in the Upper Room and as he states right here in verse 51. “If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” Jews stop, wait a second. Hold the phone. “John, what do you mean ‘my flesh?’” Verse 52, “The Jews then disputed among themselves saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” Cannibalism, paganism, barbarism, sin in the highest degree.
So did Jesus say to them, “I didn’t mean it, guys. I was just kind of, you know, using hyperbole or metaphor.” No. He actually intensifies the scandal. He actually raises the obstacle even higher. “He said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood,’ which Leviticus condemns, the drinking of blood, ‘unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.’”
He said that four times in four different ways.
In verse 60, “Many of His disciples when they heard it said, ‘This is a hard saying. Who can listen to it?’” That is an understatement. “Jesus, however, knowing in Himself that His disciples murmured at it” (the disciples, the followers, the spiritual proteges, not just the crowd now, the disciples themselves are taking offense at this and murmuring and grumbling), “said to them, ‘Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the son of man ascending to where He was before? It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.’”
What words? That you’ve got to eat my flesh and drink my blood, those words.
In 63 we discover why Christ’s flesh and blood will be so powerful and animating for supernatural life. Verse 66, “After this, many of His disciples drew back….” We get the impression that the vast majority of them said, “This is just too much.” “…and no longer went about with him. And Jesus turned to the twelve;” he didn’t apologize. He didn’t say, “Now that we’re down to twelve, I’ll tell you what I really meant.” He didn’t say that at all. In fact he is perfectly willing for this obstacle to remain scandalous even to the twelve. “Do you also wish to go away?” But “Simon Peter answered him, ‘Lord, to whom shall we go?’” Almost implying we would leave if there was somebody else that we could trust more than you because what you said is rather baffling. But he says, “To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. And we have believed and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
So we have reason to believe that this sacrifice of the New Covenant Passover begun in the Upper Room and consummated on Calvary and ultimately as 1st Corinthians 5 suggests continued and celebrated as a climactic communion on the altars of the Church around the world when we receive the Eucharist in Communion. All of this is right from the Bible but you’ve got to know your Bible. You’ve got to know John. You’ve got to know Matthew, Mark and Luke. You’ve got to know Exodus. You’ve got to know the Psalms. You’ve got to know Corinthians and you also have to know Revelation.
I know your comments were not directed at me, but excuse me a moment whilst I but in:
I used to be a Catholic and would never go back to Rome.
I have found in Christ Jesus the complete freedom found in Him and Him alone…it does not come from Mother Church.
I’m not saying that the Ctholic Church is not Christian, but it is semi-pelagian…a little bit of God and a little bit of me. No thanks. Not for me anyway.
I don’t need popes, bishops, the Vatican, or any other add ons to Christ. They may be helpful (at times and at times not)…but there is no requirement for them.
Jesus Christ and His grace…alone!
Wow, Denny….where to start. Thanks for inviting me to comment, although still having dial-up (in the woods!) prevents me from looking up each reference. I would suggest in future posts that you input the actual reference if at all possible – then others would be able to have their Bible next to them to read and study along with you.
Long list….many I agree with, but again, its so long that by the time I got to the end, I had forgotten much of what was at the top! ; ) In all honesty, I haven’t heard the grapejuice argument prior to this post – our church does use grapejuice, and I don’t think that Jesus is glaring down at each of us present when we do so.
On the subject and timing of the Rapture….well….not sure there. I’ve been having a personal struggle there for a little while now, searching for the right answer. I know the argument and references both for and against a pre-trib rapture, and as of yet, am undecided.
On the subject of sex as a necessary evil and something used only as a means to procreate – I disagree wholeheartedly. Paul told us that the marriage bed is undefiled. (Heb 13:4) He also told us not to keep ourselves from each other (spouses only, of course) except for a short time, lest we be tempted. The husband’s body does not belong only to him, but also to his wife, and vice versa. (1Cor 7:4-5) I understand you were challenging the belief that sex is bad, but I just wanted to point out these two specific verses.
There are many more issues here – I would recommend that you break it down into several posts. Perhaps focus on one or two at a time – more than one if related. And highlight you scripture, explaining WHY you belive it suggests an argument one way or the other. I’m not disagreeing with it all, but I think its too much to take in in one sitting! You’ve been busy!
Thanks for the invite….I’ll be back to check it out again….and thanks for stopping by my blog!
tonilyn18,
I do appreciate your honesty and your response.
There is a very good reason why I have termed those who have many doctrinal errors ‘Grapejuice Evangelicals.’
As you seem to be at least a fair student of the Word of God, you may have noticed that Jesus did things for very specific reasons.
Remember that in the climate of the Middle East, the process of fermentation happens almost immediately. Jesus did turn water into wine and told his mother that His time had not yet come. Wine was offered on the alter of God in the Old Testament. Jesus, at the Lord’s supper, told His disciples that he would not drink it again until He drank it anew in His Father’s Kingdom. The bread was unleavened, just like the manna from Heaven. All this has very important meanings.
And if it doesn’t matter that He gave His disciples wine or unleavened bread, then why not give water or soda or milk instead of wine? Why not give hamberger, candy or popcorn instead of unleavened bread?
The reason why I coined the term ‘Grapejuice Evangelicalism’ is because this is a general theme of those that have perverted the Gospel of Christ in many other ways; they have substituted real for fake and truth for lies.
Jesus said this:1 Corinthians 11
I fear God greatly, like He told us to do. Why oh why would I even THINK about substituting what He told us to do for what I think we should do? NEVER! I will follow the commandments of God over the wishes of men.
One other thing that I notice about Grapejuice Evangelicals is that they “revere” God, but do not fear God. Fearing God is the beginning of wisdom from above. Without it, how can one gain wisdom? I have a blog entry about this very subject.
Please take the time to read the following blog entries, if you so desire.
Stop by again and give me your feedback after you have studied these two blog entries, Ok?
http://777denny.wordpress.com/2008/03/06/the-fear-of-the-lord-is-what-christians-need/
http://777denny.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/grapejuice-evangelicalism-versus-jesus-christ-and-the-blood-of-the-new-covenant/
777denny
james mary evans,
I do appreciate your very long and thoughful response to my quesion.
When we eat the bread and drink the wine we are eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Contrary to Grapejuice Evangelicals who think it is only a substitute, they are sadly mistaken in their commentaries. But, we are NOT re-sacrificing the Lord, but instead, doing it in MEMORY of what He did on the cross for us.
It is abundantly clear that when we are drinking the wine, we drink His blood which was sacrificed for OUR sins on the cross. The same goes for the unleavened bread. It is the whole point of the passover supper; that we think in terms of OUR sins and that WE (indirectly) caused Jesus’ death on the cross for us to be saved. WE (indirectly) caused His willingness to be crucified for us! We (indirectly) caused Him to die for our sins! We are (indirectly) responsible for His death! Without His death on the cross, we could not be saved. Therefore, we humbly eat his flesh and drink His blood KNOWING WE are (indirectly) responsible for His crucifiction so that our sins could be forgiven.
However, in my opinion there is no other Christian denomination, organization or group that will be more responsible for people ending up in the lake of fire than the Catholic religion.
This religion has many doctrinal errors; from making Mary, mother of Jesus, a Diety, to kissing statues, to praying to the dead, to persecuting those it disagreed with over the centuries.
I would stay far, far away from this religion, since I could spend much time here cataloging it’s many errors and sins.
I was raised a Catholic, and it profited me nothing, since I then became an atheist for about six months in my late teens.
777denny
Dear Steve Martin,
You are not the first Catholic I’ve conversed with that little understands the mystagogical reality underlying his/her baptism—There are reasons for this as I’ve learned these past 12 years, including—but not limited to–the state of Catholic education and faith formation over the course of the past 40 years. But, this is another subject.
I would like to offer you this post below concerning the Holy Spirit in the life of the Church By Archbishop Chaput for perspective. I think you will discover that we too rely on Jesus Christ and His grace…alone—through the Holy Spirit.
I could be wrong, as I’m not aware of your spiritual life, practice, or Catholic experience, but the obstacle you appear to have is misunderstanding (or perhaps unintended ignorance) concerning the grace of Jesus Christ within the action of the Holy Spirit and His manifold works within the Church…
Feel free to contact me at http://www.fratres.wordpress for follow up, questions or rebuttal. Peace to you and all separated brethren.
James mary evans
THE HOLY SPIRIT, SOUL OF THE CHURCH
“For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body; and we were all given to drink of one Spirit” (I Cor 12:13)
How many of you have heard people from your own generation or older say something like this: “I believe in Jesus, but I don’t need the Church.” Or: “I’m a spiritual person, but I’m not religious.”
Here’s the problem with those statements: Without Jesus, there’s no Church. It’s that simple. And it’s also true the other way around: Without the Church, there’s no way we can have a lasting, personal relationship with the true Jesus Christ. The original Greek word for the Church is ekklesia, which means a gathering of those who are “called out” — called out of the darkness of the world by God for a new life in Jesus Christ. The whole reason for Jesus’ incarnation was to bring salvation to all humanity, not just his contemporaries. So He had to form a community of believers that would preserve his mission and continue it for all the generations to come. This is why He founded the family of faith we call the Church. He then made sure that his Church would become God’s people forever, by sending the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
No matter how flawed or sinful individual Catholics may be, the Holy Spirit dwells in the Church and guarantees that she will always remain the sacrament of Salvation. In other words, the Church is the only certain way by which all men and women can find the gift of salvation brought by Jesus.
Today, many people try to discredit the historical fact of Jesus in sensational ways. You know some of these efforts: the Da Vinci Code, the phony “gospel” of Judas, the bogus discovery of the “tomb” of Jesus. This has been going on for a long time. Years ago, when I was a seminarian, a book about the “lost years of Jesus” was popular. It claimed that Jesus was actually a guru who spent most of his youth in Tibet, learning from other spiritual masters. Like all the other theories, the book came, sparked some controversy, made some money for its author and then disappeared. And during your own lives as Christians, you’ll encounter theories of the same kind, with the same purpose: to disconnect Jesus Christ from his Church; to make us believe that Jesus was a very “wise man,” or an “important teacher,” or someone with a “great message,” but not the Son of God, not our Savior, and certainly not the founder of a Church — especially not our Catholic Church.
This is nonsense, and not because “the Church says so,” but because it’s historical fact. Jesus repeatedly claimed that He was the only way to salvation, that He was the Son of God, that we had to eat his flesh and drink his blood to be saved, and that we had to follow Him and make disciples of all nations.
So it’s false to say that Jesus was simply a “great master,” or “a very wise man,” or a “good leader.” You can’t be a “good man” or a “great master” and a liar at the same time, and Jesus quite openly claimed that He was the Son of God who came to save the world. He was either a complete fraud or He was the Son of God. Anything in between is just muddled thinking, inconsistent with Christ’s message. In fact, as a believer, I have more respect for someone who rejects Jesus as an impostor or lunatic, than for someone who conveniently rearranges the Christian faith to say that Christ was a “great ethical teacher.”
Of course, Catholics believe Jesus was neither crazy nor an impostor, but truly the Son of God who came to save us and to be with us always. But how is that possible? How does Jesus Christ remain in our midst?
Can any one of you see Jesus physically, with your own eyes, right here and now? No. But when Christ promised to be with us always, He specifically referred to the Church. The Church is the way Jesus fulfills his promise to remain among us until the end of time. And because we belong to the family of believers that we call the Church, we claim the presence of Jesus among us right here, right now. Why? Because Jesus said that whenever two or more would be gathered in his name, He would be present among them. And in a while, also thanks to the mystery of the Church, we will ask the Holy Spirit to come to us at Mass and transform the bread and wine into the real body and blood of Christ.
Pope Benedict XVI has talked about the relationship between Jesus and the Church in many of his weekly talks in Rome. He’s been focusing on the disciples who first surrounded Jesus, He spoke about the Apostles, and then about the different persons mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles. After this he talked about first followers of the Apostles, like Bishop Polycarp, a direct disciple of St John the Evangelist; then on the “disciples of the disciples,” like St. Irenaeus, a follower of St. Polycarp. In this way, he’s been offering, over the last two years, the great history of the Church based on all the great personalities of our tradition, from St. Augustine to St Gregory the Great, from St. Ignatius of Antioch to St. John Chrysostom.
Why is Pope Benedict doing this? What’s the core message of the Holy Father’s teachings in these weekly talks? Besides giving us an extraordinary summary of the history of the Church that no serious Catholic should miss, he’s delivering a very clear message. The message is this: We Catholic believers today are part of the same, living, community of faith founded by Jesus Christ Himself. There’s an unbroken continuity that starts with Jesus, flows down through the Apostles and arrives to us through the discipleship of previous generations and the authority of Scripture itself. In a humble, systematic way, Pope Benedict is responding with hard historical evidence to all those who argue that the Church was somehow “invented” by an emperor or some very clever human beings later in history, but has no connection with Jesus Christ.
Let’s remember that we’re celebrating this World Youth Day in the context of the Year of St. Paul, the Jubilee convoked by Pope Benedict to celebrate the 2,000 years since St. Paul’s birth. Pope Benedict explained that, when Jesus spoke to Paul at the moment of his conversion, He told Paul that Paul’s brutal persecution of Christians was a persecution of Jesus Himself. In the words of Pope Benedict, “Jesus identifies Himself with the Church as one single object. It is this revelation of the Risen Christ that transformed Paul’s life, and in which is contained all of the teachings about the Church as the body of Christ . . . The Church is not an organization that wants to promote a certain cause. [The Church] is not about a cause. It is about the person of Jesus Christ, who, even though He is risen, has remained ‘flesh’.”
Who keeps the Church alive, and who guarantees her mission? The Holy Spirit. No one else. Heinrich Himmler, the chief of Adolph Hitler’s security services during the Nazi era in Germany, once threatened the Archbishop of Berlin, Cardinal Konrad Graf, with plans to crush the Catholic Church. Cardinal Graf listened politely and then responded: “Well, good luck. We’ve been trying to do that for 2,000 years, and [the Church is] still here.” Of course, the Cardinal was being ironic, but he was also quite accurate: Even the failures and sins of her own leaders have not destroyed the Church. And the reason is simple. The holiness of the Church ultimately depends on the Holy Spirit, not on us.
The same is true today. Obviously, you and I are called to be holy. That’s a call we received at our Baptism, when we received the Holy Spirit. God renewed our vocation to holiness in our Confirmation. But the Church’s holiness is a reality that does not depend on us. As a bishop, I’m familiar with many of the problems in the Church because they usually end up on my desk. But precisely because I see the flaws of people in the Church everyday, I see more clearly that we’re guided by the Holy Spirit, and that Jesus dwells in his own true Church — the Catholic Church. I also see that the Holy Spirit raises up many, many holy people, parishes, movements and new spiritual families that are bringing new hope and fresh energy to the Church.
So make no mistake: If you want a full, meaningful life in Jesus Christ, you will only find it in the Catholic Church. Remember that the Holy Spirit is the “Lord and giver of life”: Take those words to heart. There is no real life without the Holy Spirit or without the Church that Jesus Christ founded.
To love Jesus Christ is to love the Church. This is also true the other way around: To love the Church is to love Jesus Christ. We need to have a true passion for the Church, a love that moves us to a deeper zeal for her mission, a love that makes us eager to explain and defend her. We need to rediscover the kind of unabashed love for the Church we find in the early Fathers of the Church and the great Catholic saints. Their fidelity to the Church was not abstract. Many gave their lives to prove their love.
St. Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of St. John the Apostle, on his way to being thrown to the beasts in the Roman Coliseum during one of the great persecutions against Christians, wrote a letter with these words: “I am the wheat of God, and let me be ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of Christ.”
Is our love for the Church this deep; so true and so pure that we’re ready to be “ground down” to become the wheat of God?
As a bishop, I have the privilege of receiving back into the Church many fallen away Catholics every year. The reasons these people abandoned their Church are varied. Many of them had a normal Catholic childhood; they were happy kids in a Catholic family that would say family prayers, go to Mass on Sundays, and practice Catholic traditions and devotions.
What led them away from their faith? In many cases, it was simply encountering the world, usually at college age, without a well-rooted understanding of their faith or the tools to defend it. Many had personal devotion to God, sympathy for the Church, and respect for priests and nuns; but they had no mature intellectual and spiritual formation in their faith. They were intellectually unarmed. They met the usual “false prophets” — about which Jesus Himself warned us — who filled them with doubt, peer pressure and academic cynicism, and these experiences completely undermined their Catholic soul. They became not only embarrassed about their faith but hostile to it.
Some of the most ferocious and bigoted critics of the Church I’ve met over the years have been formerly serious Catholics. And of course that makes them more effective in their ability to hurt the Church. It’s a lot like breaking up with members of your family. Because you know your spouse, or your parents, or your siblings so well, you also know better than anyone else how to hurt them.
How can we prevent joyful members of the Church from sliding into indifference or even hostility to their Catholic faith?
A strong Catholic sacramental and prayer life is indispensable. But it’s not good enough. We also need on-going Catholic formation — intellectual, spiritual and human formation. This kind of formation is almost impossible to find outside the context of a living Catholic community, be it a parish, a renewal movement or some other type of Catholic association to which we deeply commit ourselves.
Our connection to the Church is never an abstraction. It always comes alive through our engagement with a community of believers. That’s why, from the beginning, the Church was organized into territories, what today we know as parishes or dioceses. That’s also why the Church has always encouraged many different forms of Catholic spirituality and community life.
Remember that each one of you is precious to Jesus Christ as an individual, as a son or daughter of the Church. No one is a minor player in the history of salvation, and none of you is just a number in the Church. You have a purpose that only you — in all of human history — can fulfill. You are loved by God and needed in God’s plan in a unique and irreplaceable way.
St. Ignatius of Antioch once wrote:
“Christ is our leader, and we His soldiers. Let us then, brothers and sisters, with all energy, act the part of soldiers, in accordance with His holy commandments. Let us consider those who serve under generals, with what order and obedience they perform the things that are commanded them. All are not generals, nor commanders of a thousand, or a hundred . . . but each one in his own rank performs [what must be accomplished]. The great cannot subsist without the small, nor the small without the great.”
More than 40 years ago, Pope Paul VI gave his great first encyclical the title Ecclesiam Suam. Those are Latin words that mean “His Church.” Pope Paul meant that the Catholic Church does not belong to the bishops, or to the priests or deacons or nuns or laypeople, or even to the Pope himself. The Church belongs to Jesus Christ. Each one of you is needed to live and witness Jesus Christ. Do not evade that responsibility. Do not break faith with the Lord who loves you — Jesus Christ, whose Catholic Church is the path to your own and the world’s salvation.
May God bless you.
Darn it all Denny!!!,
I was just about to go share a glass of wine with my wife when I saw your post… How appropriate considering the subject (The Kingdom of God) at hand… (both literally and spiritually).
Not to mention my new electronic friend, that my conscience is now on fire for dropping another long post to Steve Martin just seconds before reading yours concerning length… Soon we’ll explore width and depth I promise…
As an unapologetic, (and trusting), promoter of Mary, the Mother of God, and her role in the sanctification of souls, I will digress for the moment and blame Eve for my rather lengthy posts. Or I could simply take an adversarial approach and claim vengeance for your own rather lengthy post… But, love overcomes all, and so I beg pardon and promise to curtail my zeal for your return to the one fold.
I will return soon, peace to you and yours Dennis,
james mary evans
james mary evans,
Don’t worry about a rush to answer my last comments. Keep sipping your wine (not too much, though) as you go through my four links and find out WHY I could never, ever follow such a religion. I would rather die.
Thank you,
777denny
Wow… of all the things to pick a fight over…
Avoiding delving into Greek/English didacticisms for the time being, I have to admit that there are much bigger problems in the church than whether or not (A) sex should be enjoyable or (B) whether Jesus was in to wine or grape juice. Considering that wine is merely old grape juice, it’s really comparing apple juice and applesauce.
That being said, I think there needs to be some room here to allow for the crowd that is just uncomfortable with the idea of alchohol and get over ourselves.
It is my contention that until we have wiped Gnosticism, Antinomianism, and Docetism out of the church, I’m not really concerned about “was it wine or grape juice”. There are just bigger fish to fry……
christiankane,
I must admit that I haven’t heard much about these things.
But you are very WRONG to advocate NOT teaching God’s children to obey GOD NOW in EVERYTHING – including what I have written.
Maybe YOU don’t think these things deserve attention, but YOU are WRONG!
Plus, wine is NOT grapejuice, but fermented grapejuice. God did not command that grapejuice be poured on the alter of God, but fermented wine!
There IS a reason for it, if you care to read my post about it. Why should you judge me if you have not fully researched what I have written and the links therein?
Furthermore, if God’s people were to follow what I have written about in this post, they wouldn’t be involved in the things you mentioned.
Please be prepared for spiritual combat here, since I believe God wants me to do this very thing.
http://777denny.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/grapejuice-evangelicalism-versus-jesus-christ-and-the-blood-of-the-new-covenant/
777denny
We have to remember that our salvation comes from nothing we do or our own righteousness. This beautiful and free gift of grace comes from the blood of Jesus Christ alone. When a person comes to thier knees and truly believes that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, thier hearts begin a transformation. As we continue to worship, praise, and study our will will be transformed and set in line with God’s will, which is pleasing annd perfect (Romans 12:2). Then is when we can find descernment for His Word, and the ability to know how He would want us to handle and live our lives day-to-day.
I am not a theologian. I simply love God, look for Him in every part of my life, and I share it. If you truly want a theological opinion on your thoughts I suggest that check out Evangelical Ministries (biblestudypodcasts.org). I would be very interested to see what they have to say in reflection of your post.
God bless,
Judy
jujubug,
I agree. It is by grace through faith that we are saved…alone!
“Not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
Good for you!!
– Steve Martin San Clemente, CA
christiankane,
I agree with you.
We have some alcoholics in our congregation and a few others that are not comfortable with wine.
So we offer grape juice for them. All others receive wine.
No big deal. It is His Word that accompanies the bread and the wine that makes it efficacious.
His Word of promise is the vehicle that brings life to the water in baptism and the elements in His supper.
His Word (which is Christ Himself) is the key.
Thanks!!
– Steve Martin San Clemente, CA
jujubug,
This is a very common GRAVE error of Grapejuice Evangelicalism.
They do not differenciate between the initial salvation and the HOPE of eternal life that they now posses.
Not ALL who have recieved Him will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Jesus makes this abundantly clear MANY, MANY times.
(Notice that the bible explains that God is the sower of HIS SEED in the above text.)
Notice that the person above was ALREADY a son and part of God’s household.
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Our initial salvation is Christ in us, the HOPE of glory.
I could list all the scriptures that teach that AFTER someone receives Christ and is baptized for the remission of their sins, they MUST endure to the end, but I have an entire blog entry for this very purpose.
The whole point in God saving us is to please God with our lives. We are created entirely to do His will and please Him. Therefore, if we do not at the end of our lives live in Him, NONE of our righteous acts we have done will be remembered. I believe this is why the scripture says that scarcely the righteous be saved.
Remember all the saints that Paul talked about who left the faith? Even ALL in Asia abandoned him.
Jesus Christ is coming back for a church WITHOUT spot or wrinkle. THAT IS THE REASON FOR THIS BLOG.
We WILL all be pressed into the Great Tribulation Period, regardless of those who teach and preach otherwise.
We all thought is was not something for us when it says in Philippians 2:12: So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Please read my post concerning the “once saved always saved” heresy. That heresy almost cost me my eternal soul in hell forever.
http://777denny.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/once-saved-always-saved-doctrine-can-land-you-in-a-place-called-the-lake-of-fire/
Also, please click on the first video in this post:
http://777denny.wordpress.com/2009/01/20/do-people-either-end-up-going-to-heaven-or-to-a-place-called-the-lake-of-fire-hell/
Thank you,
777denny
Thanks for visitng my Blog. I read your with interest, adn I must admit I never had thought about this debate before.
I must confess in the world and the challenges it faces I am not sure that grapejuice is the greates danger facing the the church. Thank you however for posting
Denny, as an American, you are more than welcome to your opinion… because Freedom of Speech is just that grand…
However, I think you answered my own points by admitting that you haven’t heard about genuine heresy (IE, gnosticism) but you would spend your time picking apart whether grape juice will send you to hell. It’s kind of along the same lines as not seeing the forrest for the trees.
“Wine is not grapejuice…”
I didn’t say it was. I said wine is “old grapejuice”. The process involves taking grapejuice and locking it in a barrel in a cool dark place for a really long time… meaning, it is old grapjuice. You can ferment grape juice in your home refrigerator if you leave it in there for too long. My point is that we are talking about products of grapes… the major difference between the two being how old they are.
As for the angst about researching your argument… I have had this discussion before at least twice. I don’t need to go over every single point of it again. I understand your position, and I believe that you have picked a very obscure hill to make your stand on. Grapejuice does not change the person of Jesus Christ, the act of atonement, the reality of the coming kingdom, or even the status of “salvation”. The thing I am thinking about is a scene from the film Kingdom of Heaven when they are getting ready to burn dead bodies and the priest is making a fuss over it…
“If you destroy a body, it cannot live again until the resurrection!”
“If we do not burn these bodies we will all be dead of disease in three days. God will understand… if not, then He is not God and we have nothing to fear.”
There comes a time where doctrine has to bump into reality. Personally, I would find it sin to knowingly give wine to a recovering Alchoholic. It would also stand to reason that if there are zero recovering alchoholics in the congregation, the church is not succeeding in its mission.
christiankane,
Proverbs 29:20 Do you see a man who is hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him.
Proverbs 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.
Proverbs 18:13 He who gives an answer before he hears, It is folly and shame to him.
Titus 3:10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
777denny
Isn’t proof-texting awesome?
I read your post and I left a comment… what you do with it is entirely your affair. If it irks you that I disagree, maybe being an author isn’t for you…
Hi Denny,
You invited me to comment, and so I shall.
Firstly, my original approach was about abstinence, and how it’s bad to control people. “Don’t buy angels”, “Grow your hair, woman” and so forth are kinda ridiculous. Seriously, what’s going to happen to all those cute girls with short hair?
I know you’ve got a solid idea of what the Christian bible (composed and compiled by men from 70 to 500CE, I might add, to suit a particular political agenda – I highly recommend “Who Wrote The New Testament” by Burton Mack on this subject) “really says”. I have two problems with this approach.
1. The Bible is so big and full of so many contradictions that misreadings are inevitable. A good example is your stance on abortion, which is not mentioned at all. I’m sure you’d love for it to be mentioned, but it’s just not there in any clear way. Not only that, but the bible doesn’t speak out against slavery at all, and asks slaves to be good to their masters. Is this justification for slavery? Is slavery OK now? It was certainly used to justify slavery back in the day.
You can make the bible say what you want on many issues, but it isn’t clear at all that you’re right and everyone else is wrong.
2. Insisting you have the right idea and trying to apply it leads to situations like I’ve already mentioned – when you start making arguments about how to control the day-to-day behaviour of people. Seriously, Jesus (apparently) got down with tax collectors and prostitutes. Why does he suddenly care if a guy grows his hair long? The clear answer is that Jesus didn’t care, but Paul did. Now you have to defend every position of Paul’s, because if he’s wrong on hair, then what else is he wrong on?
Debating dogmatic quibbles with other Christians is not the best way to effect the change you want. Jesus’ first and most powerful message was the Kingdom of God – where everyone is accepted and has a place, rather than earthly kingdoms were there are “undesirables” with their “undesirable” behaviour.
Women, cut your hair. Men, grow your hair. If you’re going to have your life ruined by a baby, then abort it and have more later. Be a good person. Don’t pour over this outdated, archaic mess of a book looking for justification.
I also have no interest in pursuing a debate with you. You can post a reply full of invective and scriptural reference, but I probably won’t read it.
Seriously, read “Who Wrote The New Testament” by Mack. It will change your life.
andrewcrisp,
Thank you for responding,
I think I disagree with virtuously every point you made.
But you are right. Why should we debate? I am called to be a TESTIMONY against those who don’t love God and for those who do and will.
Thank you for listening,
777denny
Denny, do you consider yourself a biblical literalist or fundamentalist (or both)?
I see you quote from the Old Testament when justifying some of your (frankly reprehensible) moral positions, so I guess you paid attention to The Christ when he said that he didn’t come to abolish the law and the prophets, but to fulfil them (you know where it is). So I guess you’re not of the strand of belief which accepts that the new covenant replaces the old, broken covenant, with its 10 commandments, and the associated encrustations of the Mosaic law.
Which is fine, I guess, if not very progressive. So my question is, in essence, do you keep kosher? Have you ever eaten a cheeseburger? Have you ever eaten shrimp? Or lobster? Have you, perhaps inadvertently, worn a cotton shirt and denim pants at the same time? Have you ever worn cotton-polyester blended socks or shirts? If you got a patch of skin which turned white, would you go to the doctor, or would you go to your Rabbi, like you’re supposed to, to find out if it is unclean or not?
If you are married, have you ever slept in the same bed as your wife when she is menstruating? Or slept in a bed in which she has slept, while menstruating?
If you have done any of these things, and if, as you say the word of God lives and abides forever, how can you not now go to your Rabbi and consult with him about the appropriate sacrifices to make to atone for your sins? I mean, it might not be a very good idea, because some of them require you to be exiled from the community, and some of the things that modern christians do without thinking about it, without feeling a shred of guilt, should lead to them being lead out of the city and stoned.
On the other hand, if you do live kosher and you do follow all the words of God, not just those which are conveniently placed for you to project your morals into the world as natural law, then, well, I am a) flabbergasted, b) impressed, c) a little bit sad.
to expand, sorry, the reason I am a little bit sad is that you can’t eat bacon, which, in my opinion, is one of God’s finest works, and therefore one of God’s biggest d*** moves towards the Jewish people (and, theoretically, biblical fundamentalists).
Danoot,
Thank you for commenting.
Alas, I like and do eat bacon. I believe Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses and all the prophets at the day of Pentecost when His Father gave us His Holy Spirit to indwell in us.
The teachings of those who say we are still under the Law of Moses are false, therefore I believe those who teach such things are false teachers who have fallen from grace, according to what the scriptures teach.
This is from http://www.bible.ca – The 10 Commandments are Abolished Today. (I do not agree with many of Church of Christ teachings and believe this denomination is full of false doctrines and false teachers)
Romans 7:1-7 Comes right out and uses the same word for abolished of the 10 commandments that Eph 2:15 uses of what Sabbatarians say is the ceremonial law.
2 Corinthians 3 Flat out says the 10 commandments are abolished in 4 places by using the same word for abolished as in Eph 2:15.
Ephesians 2:15 Commandments contained in ordinances” refers specifically to the 10 commandments
Galatians 3:24-25 Adventists say the whole book of Galatians deals only with the ceremonial law, but Gal 4 proves them wrong. This passage says we are no longer under the ten commandment law now that Christ has come.
Colossians 2:14-16 So clearly states the weekly Sabbath is abolished that Adventists are at a loss as to know what to do with it!
False distinction refuted: 10 commandments vs. ceremonial law is a man made distinction not found in the Bible!
10 proofs that the 10 commandments are called “Statutes, Ordinances and Decrees” To the shock of Adventists, we have found 10 major texts in the Bible that come right out and call the 10 commandments “decrees… you know the equivalent word used in Col 2:14 and Eph 2:15.
Sabbath Keepers always misquote Matthew 5:17 as a proof text, that the Sabbath will endure as long as the earth stands. Simply stated, the passage says that Jesus came to fulfill the whole law (moral and ceremonial) and that none of the law would be abolished until it was fulfilled. Adventists take the incredible position that Jesus did not fulfill the law! Sabbatarians also press the expression, “not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law” as a proof text that the Sabbath is in force today! Problem is, this expression, as Jesus used it, included the whole Law of Moses including animal sacrifices. If “jot or tittle” is still in force today, the we must have both the Sabbath and animal sacrifices! Logic has never been a strong point with Seventh-day Adventists!
Jeremiah 3:14-17 proves the 10 commandments were to be abolished when Christ came.
Sabbatarians are taught that only “The Ceremonial Law” was abolished, not “The Ten Commandment law”. The primary mistake they make is creating a false distinction between “The 10 Commandments” and “The Ceremonial Law”. This distinction is foreign to the Bible!
The New Covenant teaches us through God’s Holy Spirit, for the sons of Gods are CONTINUOUSLY being led by the Spirit of God to do His will.
– Colossians 2:8-16
A 1985 study by Nanji and French[14] found that there was a significant correlation between cirrhosis and pork consumption. Modern day swine raising is very different from earlier times with greater exposure to toxins but reduced exposure to pests and disease.
There are those that believe eating pork is sin. To them it is sin. But they should not judge those of us who are thankful to God for pork products. But we should not eat pork around a brother or sister who is offended by it – or any other foods or drinks they consider sinful.
Also, some churches of God are Sabbatarian.
Thank you for listening,
777denny
Odd … somehow all my comments disappeared …
Buz
Buz,
Do not fear, for all your comments are where you left them. Right here:
http://777denny.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/grapejuice-evangelicalism-versus-jesus-christ-and-the-blood-of-the-new-covenant/
Thank you,
777denny
Hello Denny,
I appreciate your zeal and reliance on quoting the scriptures. I agree with much of what you said, and certainly the need among Christians for a greater fear of the Lord and realization of the destructiveness of false doctrines. I also agree that “once saved always saved” is a heresy and that non-leavened bread should be used in the Lord’s Supper.
I disagreed with some of your points. Since your main contention was that the Greek word “oinos” should always be translated as wine, I will focus on that point. I agree that oinos sometimes means fermented wine. But to the Greek mind, oinos just meant the drink produced from crushed grapes, whether it was immediately squeezed from the grapes into a cup, allowed to ferment briefly, or brought to the strongest alcoholic content available at the time (which was still well below that of today’s “strong drink”). We call one of those drinks “grapejuice” and the other “wine,” but the Jews and Greeks of the first century would use “oinos” to refer to both.
Additionally, there is abundant evidence from various Roman, Greek, and Jewish writers that it was a common practice to water down fermented grape juice by anywhere from 2 to 8 (or more) parts water to 1 part juice. That would make their drink much less fermented than even the weakest wines on the market today. Further, they often used a filtration system which would remove the alcohol. The filtration method separated the gluten (or yeast) naturally present in grape juice from the liquid. Without the gluten, fermentation could not take place. For example, Plutarch, who lived between 46 and 120 A.D. said, “Wine is rendered feeble in strength when it is frequently filtered. The strength or spirit thus being excluded, the wine neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind and passions, and is much more pleasant to drink.” Pliny, who lived between 62 and 113 A.D. wrote, “The most useful wine was all its force or strength broken by the filter.” Notice that he valued non-alcoholic beverages over the alcoholic variety.
God’s point in selecting oinos as a symbolic drink was not that Christians were to drink alcohol, but that Christians were to drink a substance resembling the blood of our precious Lord. An increased length of fermentation time for the juice is not tied to the symbol in any way.
So to condemn brethren from using a nonalcoholic juice rather than an alcoholic juice is without scriptural basis. For one to bind modern day wine usage in the Lord’s Supper, one would have to be able to *prove* that Jesus was using fermented juice from the grape during the Passover meal. No scripture indicates that, to my knowledge.
In Christian love,
Jason King
Jason King,
Thank you for taking time to point out what your thoughts are on this subject.
(NOTE: I have given sites that I may disagree with, so these are just for references to the issue at hand)
I found the following on the Internet:
Oinos: Only Fermented Grape Juice. It is widely believed that both in secular and Biblical Greek the word oinos, from which derive both the Latin vinum and the English wine, meant exclusively fermented grape juice. For example, in his book The Christian and Alcoholic Beverages, Kenneth L. Gentry states: “Classical Greek—the historical forerunner of the New Testament (koine) Greek—employs the term as a fermented beverage. The Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon of classical Greek defines oinos as ‘the fermented juice of the grape.’ Interestingly, classical Greek apparently used oinos as a functional equivalent for ‘fermented juice,’ as Liddell and Scott note . . .”15 Gentry goes on quoting New Testament lexicographers to show that “no major New Testament lexicon disputes the fermented character of oinos.”16 After examining some New Testament passages, Gentry concludes: “The case is clear: oinos is an alcoholic beverage. Yet nowhere is wine per se forbidden.”17
This is from letGodbetrue.com – heresies/lackeys-article-on-wine.pdf
1. Dr. Lackey states that the word “wine” in the Bible is a generic term and may sometimes mean grape juice. However, if you look up the word “wine” in the Oxford English Dictionary, the standard dictionary of the English language, you will see that the word is not generic at all. The word “wine” always refers to alcoholic beverages, never to non-alcoholic beverages. “Wine” in the Bible refers to “the fermented juice of the grape used as a beverage.” The word “wine” never refers to grape juice. Our King James Bible translators knew what grape juice was, and they knew what wine was. They chose the word “wine” throughout the Bible because they intended the established, commonly understood meaning of the word.
The verses that Dr. Lackey cites as proof that the word “wine” can mean fresh grape juice do not prove this point at all. In each instance, the word “wine” means the fermented juice of the grape. How do we know this? Because the English word “wine” never means grape juice. Just grab any English dictionary.
This is from ankerberg.com – bible for dummies
According to the Greek text, the word
used here is oinos, a wine derived from grapes; there is no evidence that wine is to be
translated “grape juice.”
This is from Wikipedia – Wine
This is from refbible.com – Wine
The common Hebrew word for wine is yayin, from a root meaning “to boil up,” “to be in a ferment.” Others derive it from a root meaning “to tread out,” and hence the juice of the grape trodden out. The Greek word for wine is oinos_, and the Latin _vinun. But besides this common Hebrew word, there are several others which are thus rendered.
`Asis, “sweet wine,” or “new wine,” the product of the same year (Cant. 8:2; Isaiah 49:26; Joel 1:5; 3:18; Amos 9:13), from a root meaning “to tread,” hence juice trodden out or pressed out, thus referring to the method by which the juice is obtained. The power of intoxication is ascribed to it.
Hemer, Deuteronomy 32:14 (rendered “blood of the grape”) Isaiah 27:2 (”red wine”), Ezra 6:9; 7:22; Dan. 5:1, 2, 4. This word conveys the idea of “foaming,” as in the process of fermentation, or when poured out. It is derived from the root hamar, meaning “to boil up,” and also “to be red,” from the idea of boiling or becoming inflamed.
Mesekh, properly a mixture of wine and water with spices that increase its stimulating properties (Isaiah 5:22). Psalm 75:8, “The wine [yayin] is red; it is full of mixture [mesekh];” Proverbs 23:30, “mixed wine;Isaiah 65:11, “drink offering” (R.V., “mingled wine”).
Tirosh, properly “must,” translated “wine” (Deuteronomy 28:51); “new wine” (Proverbs 3:10); “sweet wine” (Micah 6:15; R.V., “vintage”). This Hebrew word has been traced to a root meaning “to take possession of” and hence it is supposed that tirosh is so designated because in intoxicating it takes possession of the brain. Among the blessings promised to Esau (Genesis 27:28) mention is made of “plenty of corn and tirosh.” Palestine is called “a land of corn and tirosh” (Deuteronomy 33:28; Comp. Isaiah 36:17). See also Deuteronomy 28:51; 2 Chronicles 32:28; Joel 2:19; Hosea 4:11, (”wine [yayin] and new wine [tirosh] take away the heart”).
Shekar, “strong drink,” any intoxicating liquor; from a root meaning “to drink deeply,” “to be drunken”, a generic term applied to all fermented liquors, however obtained. Numbers 28:7, “strong wine” (R.V., “strong drink”). It is sometimes distinguished from wine, c.g., Leviticus 10:9, “Do not drink wine [yayin] nor strong drink [shekar];” Numbers 6:3; Judges 13:4, 7; Isaiah 28:7 (in all these places rendered “strong drink”). Translated “strong drink” also in Isaiah 5:11; 24:9; 29:9; 56:12; Proverbs 20:1; 31:6; Micah 2:11.
Shemarim (only in plural), “lees” or “dregs” of wine. In Isaiah 25:6 it is rendered “wines on the lees”, i.e., wine that has been kept on the lees, and therefore old wine.
Mesek, “a mixture,” mixed or spiced wine, not diluted with water, but mixed with drugs and spices to increase its strength, or, as some think, mingled with the lees by being shaken (Psalm 75:8; Proverbs 23:30).
In Acts 2:13 the word gleukos, rendered “new wine,” denotes properly “sweet wine.” It must have been intoxicating.
In addition to wine the Hebrews also made use of what they called debash, which was obtained by boiling down must to one-half or one-third of its original bulk. In Genesis 43:11 this word is rendered “honey.” It was a kind of syrup, and is called by the Arabs at the present day dibs. This word occurs in the phrase “a land flowing with milk and honey” (debash), Exodus 3:8, 17; 13:5; 33:3; Leviticus 20:24; Numbers 13: 27. (see HONEY.)
A drink-offering of wine was presented with the daily sacrifice (Exodus 29:40, 41), and also with the offering of the first-fruits (Leviticus 23:13), and with various other sacrifices (Numbers 15:5, 7, 10). Wine was used at the celebration of the Passover. And when the Lord’s Supper was instituted, the wine and the unleavened bread then on the paschal table were by our Lord set apart as memorials of his body and blood.
Easton’s Bible Dictionary
The common Hebrew word for wine is yayin, from a root meaning “to boil up,” “to be in a ferment.” Others derive it from a root meaning “to tread out,” and hence the juice of the grape trodden out. The Greek word for wine is oinos_, and the Latin _vinun. But besides this common Hebrew word, there are several others which are thus rendered.
(1.) Ashishah (2 Samuel 6:19; 1 Chronicles 16:3; Cant. 2:5; Hosea 3:1), which, however, rather denotes a solid cake of pressed grapes, or, as in the Revised Version, a cake of raisins.
(2.) `Asis, “sweet wine,” or “new wine,” the product of the same year (Cant. 8:2; Isaiah 49:26; Joel 1:5; 3:18; Amos 9:13), from a root meaning “to tread,” hence juice trodden out or pressed out, thus referring to the method by which the juice is obtained. The power of intoxication is ascribed to it.
(3.) Hometz. See VINEGAR.
(4.) Hemer, Deuteronomy 32:14 (rendered “blood of the grape”) Isaiah 27:2 (”red wine”), Ezra 6:9; 7:22; Dan. 5:1, 2, 4. This word conveys the idea of “foaming,” as in the process of fermentation, or when poured out. It is derived from the root hamar, meaning “to boil up,” and also “to be red,” from the idea of boiling or becoming inflamed.
(5.) `Enabh, a grape (Deuteronomy 32:14). The last clause of this verse should be rendered as in the Revised Version, “and of the blood of the grape [`enabh] thou drankest wine [hemer].” In Hosea 3:1 the phrase in Authorized Version, “flagons of wine,” is in the Revised Version correctly “cakes of raisins.” (Comp. Genesis 49:11; Numbers 6:3; Deuteronomy 23:24, etc., where this Hebrew word is rendered in the plural “grapes.”)
(6.) Mesekh, properly a mixture of wine and water with spices that increase its stimulating properties (Isaiah 5:22). Psalm 75:8, “The wine [yayin] is red; it is full of mixture [mesekh];” Proverbs 23:30, “mixed wine;Isaiah 65:11, “drink offering” (R.V., “mingled wine”).
(7.) Tirosh, properly “must,” translated “wine” (Deuteronomy 28:51); “new wine” (Proverbs 3:10); “sweet wine” (Micah 6:15; R.V., “vintage”). This Hebrew word has been traced to a root meaning “to take possession of” and hence it is supposed that tirosh is so designated because in intoxicating it takes possession of the brain. Among the blessings promised to Esau (Genesis 27:28) mention is made of “plenty of corn and tirosh.” Palestine is called “a land of corn and tirosh” (Deuteronomy 33:28; Comp. Isaiah 36:17). See also Deuteronomy 28:51; 2 Chronicles 32:28; Joel 2:19; Hosea 4:11, (”wine [yayin] and new wine [tirosh] take away the heart”).
(8.) Sobhe (root meaning “to drink to excess, ” “to suck up, ” “absorb”), found only in Isaiah 1:22, Hosea 4:18 (”their drink;” Gesen. and marg. of R.V., “their carouse”), and Nahum 1:10 (”drunken as drunkards;” lit., “soaked according to their drink;” R.V., “drenched, as it were, in their drink”, i.e., according to their sobhe).
(9.) Shekar, “strong drink,” any intoxicating liquor; from a root meaning “to drink deeply,” “to be drunken”, a generic term applied to all fermented liquors, however obtained. Numbers 28:7, “strong wine” (R.V., “strong drink”). It is sometimes distinguished from wine, c.g., Leviticus 10:9, “Do not drink wine [yayin] nor strong drink [shekar];” Numbers 6:3; Judges 13:4, 7; Isaiah 28:7 (in all these places rendered “strong drink”). Translated “strong drink” also in Isaiah 5:11; 24:9; 29:9; 56:12; Proverbs 20:1; 31:6; Micah 2:11.
(10.) Yekebh (Deuteronomy 16:13, but in R.V. correctly “wine-press”), a vat into which the new wine flowed from the press. Joel 2:24, “their vats;3:13, “the fats;” Proverbs 3:10, “Thy presses shall burst out with new wine [tirosh];” Haggai 2:16; Jeremiah 48:33, “wine-presses;” 2 Kings 6:27; Job 24:11.
(11.) Shemarim (only in plural), “lees” or “dregs” of wine. In Isaiah 25:6 it is rendered “wines on the lees”, i.e., wine that has been kept on the lees, and therefore old wine.
(12.) Mesek, “a mixture,” mixed or spiced wine, not diluted with water, but mixed with drugs and spices to increase its strength, or, as some think, mingled with the lees by being shaken (Psalm 75:8; Proverbs 23:30).
In Acts 2:13 the word gleukos, rendered “new wine,” denotes properly “sweet wine.” It must have been intoxicating.
In addition to wine the Hebrews also made use of what they called debash, which was obtained by boiling down must to one-half or one-third of its original bulk. In Genesis 43:11 this word is rendered “honey.” It was a kind of syrup, and is called by the Arabs at the present day dibs. This word occurs in the phrase “a land flowing with milk and honey” (debash), Exodus 3:8, 17; 13:5; 33:3; Leviticus 20:24; Numbers 13: 27. (see HONEY.)
Our Lord miraculously supplied wine at the marriage feast in Cana of Galilee (John 2:1-11). The Rechabites were forbidden the use of wine (Jeremiah 35). The Nazarites also were to abstain from its use during the period of their vow (Numbers 6:1-4); and those who were dedicated as Nazarites from their birth were perpetually to abstain from it (Judges 13:4, 5; Luke 1:15; 7:33). The priests, too, were forbidden the use of wine and strong drink when engaged in their sacred functions (Leviticus 10:1, 9-11). “Wine is little used now in the East, from the fact that Mohammedans are not allowed to taste it, and very few of other creeds touch it. When it is drunk, water is generally mixed with it, and this was the custom in the days of Christ also. The people indeed are everywhere very sober in hot climates; a drunken person, in fact, is never seen”, (Geikie’s Life of Christ). The sin of drunkenness, however, must have been not uncommon in the olden times, for it is mentioned either metaphorically or literally more than seventy times in the Bible.
A drink-offering of wine was presented with the daily sacrifice (Exodus 29:40, 41), and also with the offering of the first-fruits (Leviticus 23:13), and with various other sacrifices (Numbers 15:5, 7, 10). Wine was used at the celebration of the Passover. And when the Lord’s Supper was instituted, the wine and the unleavened bread then on the paschal table were by our Lord set apart as memorials of his body and blood.
Several emphatic warnings are given in the New Testament against excess in the use of wine (Luke 21:34; Romans 13:13; Ephesians 5:18; 1 Timothy 3:8; Titus 1:7).
Noah Webster’s Dictionary
1. (n.) The expressed juice of grapes, esp. when fermented; a beverage or liquor prepared from grapes by squeezing out their juice, and (usually) allowing it to ferment.
2. (n.) A liquor or beverage prepared from the juice of any fruit or plant by a process similar to that for grape wine; as, currant wine; gooseberry wine; palm wine.
3. (n.) The effect of drinking wine in excess; intoxication.
Int. Standard Bible Encyclopedia
WINE; WINE PRESS
win, win’-pres:
I. Terms.
1. Wine:
(1) (yayin), apparently from a non-Tsere root allied to Greek oinos, Latin vinum, etc. This is the usual word for “wine” and is found 141 times in Massoretic Text.
(2) chemer, perhaps “foaming” (Deuteronomy 32:14 and Massoretic Text Isaiah 27:2 (but see the English Revised Version margin)); Aramaic chamar (Ezra 6:9; Ezra 7:22 Daniel 5:1, 2, 4, 23).
(3) tirosh. Properly this is the fresh grape juice (called also mishreh, Numbers 6:3), even when still in the grape (Isaiah 65:8). But unfermented grape juice is a very difficult thing to keep without the aid of modern antiseptic precautions, and its preservation in the warm and not over-cleanly conditions of ancient Palestine was impossible. Consequently, tirosh came to mean wine that was not fully aged (although with full intoxicating properties (Judges 9:13 Hosea 4:11; compare Acts 11:13)) or wine when considered specifically as the product of grapes (Deuteronomy 12:17; Deuteronomy 18:4, etc.). The Septuagint always (except Isaiah 65:8 Hosea 4:11) translates by oinos and the Targums by chamar. the King James Version has “wine” 26 times, “new wine” 11 times, “sweet wine” in Micah 6:15; the Revised Version (British and American) “vintage” in Numbers 18:12 Micah 6:15 (with the same change in Nehemiah 10:37, 39 the Revised Version margin; Isaiah 62:8 the English Revised Version margin). Otherwise the English Revised Version has left the King James Version unchanged, while the American Standard Revised Version uses “new wine” throughout.
(4) Two apparently poetic words are `acic (the Revised Version (British and American) “sweet wine,” Isaiah 49:26 Amos 9:13 Joel 1:5; Joel 3:18, “juice”; Songs 8:2), and cobhe’ (”wine,” Isaiah 1:22; “drink,” Hosea 4:18 (margin “carouse”); Nahum 1:10).
(5) For spiced wine three words occur: mecekh, Psalm 75:8 (English Versions of the Bible “mixture”); mimcakh, Proverbs 23:30 (”mixed wine”); Isaiah 65:11 (the Revised Version (British and American) “mingled wine”); mezegh, Songs 7:2 (the Revised Version (British and American) “mingled wine”); compare also yayin hareqach, Songs 8:2 (”spiced wine”).
(6) mamethaqqim, literally, “sweet,” Nehemiah 8:10.
(7) shekhar (22 times), translated “strong drink” in English Versions of the Bible. Shekhar appears to mean “intoxicating drink” of any sort and in Numbers 28:7 is certainly simply “wine” (compare also its use in parallelism to “wine” in Isaiah 5:11, 22, etc.). In certain passages (Leviticus 10:9 Numbers 6:3 1 Samuel 1:15, etc.), however, it is distinguished from “wine,” and the meaning is not quite certain. But it would seem to mean “drink not made from grapes.” Of such only pomegranate wine is named in the Bible (Songs 8:2), but a variety of such preparations (made from apples, quinces, dates, barley, etc.) were known to the ancients and must have been used in Palestine also. The translation “strong drink” is unfortunate, for it suggests “distilled liquor,” “brandy,” which is hardly in point.
Many of the ancient wine presses remain to the present day. Ordinarily they consisted of two rectangular or circular excavations, hewn (Isaiah 5:2) in the solid rock to a depth of 2 or 3 feet. Where possible one was always higher than the other and they were connected by a pipe or channel. Their size, of course, varied greatly, but the upper vat was always wider and shallower than the lower and was the press proper, into which the grapes were thrown, to be crushed by the feet of the treaders (Isaiah 63:1-3, etc.). The juice flowed down through the pipe into the lower vat, from which it was removed into jars (Haggai 2:16) or where it was allowed to remain during the first fermentation.
Many modifications of this form of the press are found. Where there was no rock close to the surface, the vats were dug in the earth and lined with stonework or cement, covered with pitch. Or the pressvat might be built up out of any material (wood was much used in Egypt), and from it the juice could be conducted into a sunken receptacle or into jars. Not infrequently a third (rarely a fourth) vat might be added between the other two, in which a partial settling and straining could take place. Wooden beams are often used either to finish the pressing or to perform the whole operation, and holes into which the ends of these beams fitted can still be seen. A square of wood attached to the beam bore down on the pile of grapes, while the free end of the beam was heavily weighted. In the simpler presses the final result was obtained by piling stones on the mass that remained after the treaders had finished their work.
3. Grading:
It is a general principle of wine-making (compare that “the less the pressure the better the product”; therefore the liquid that flowed at the beginning of the process, especially that produced by the mere weight of the grapes themselves when piled in heaps, was carefully kept separate from that which was obtained only under heavy pressure. A still lower grade was made by adding water to the final refuse the mixture to ferment. Possibly this last concoction is sometimes meant by the word “vinegar” (chomets).
4. Fermentation:
In the climate of Palestine fermentation begins almost immediately, frequently on the same day for juice pressed out in the morning, but never later than the next day. At first a slight foam appears on the surface of the liquid, and from that moment, according to Jewish tradition, it is liable to the wine-tithe (Ma`aseroth 1 7). The action rapidly becomes more violent, and while it is in progress the liquid must be kept in jars or in a vat, for it would burst even the newest and strongest of wine-skins (Job 32:19). Within about a week this violent fermentation subsides, and the wine is transferred to other jars or strong wine-skins (Mark 2:22 and parallel’s), in which it undergoes the secondary fermentation. At the bottom of the receptacles collects the heavier matter or “lees” (shemarim, Psalm 75:8 (”dregs”); Jeremiah 48:11; Zechariah 1:12 in Isaiah 25:6 the word is used for the wine as well), from which the “wines on the lees” gather strength and flavor.
At the end of 40 days it was regarded as properly “wine” and could be offered as a drink offering (`Edhuyyoth 6 1). The practice after this point seems to have varied, no doubt depending on the sort of wine that was being made. Certain kinds were left undisturbed to age “on their lees” and were thought to be all the better for so doing, but before they were used it was necessary to strain them very carefully. So Isaiah 25:6, `A feast of wine aged on the lees, thoroughly strained.’ But usually leaving the wine in the fermentation vessels interfered with its improvement or caused it to degenerate. So at the end of 40 days it was drawn off into other jars (for storage, 1 Chronicles 27:27, etc.) or wine-skins (for transportation, Joshua 9:4, etc.). So Jeremiah 48:11: `Moab has been undisturbed from his youth, and he has rested on his lees and has not been emptied from vessel to vessel….. Therefore his flavor remains unchanged (or “becomes insipid”) and his scent is unimproved (or “lacks freshness”)’; compare Zechariah 1:12.
5. Storage:
Jars were tightly sealed with caps covered with pitch. The very close sealing needed to preserve sparkling wines, however, was unknown to the Hebrews, and in consequence (and for other reasons) such wines were not used. Hence, in Psalm 75:8, “The wine foameth,” the allusion must be to very new wine whose fermentation had not yet subsided, if indeed, the translation is not wrong (the Revised Version margin “The wine is red”). The superiority of old wine to new was acknowledged by the Hebrews, in common with the rest of the world (Sirach 9:10; Luke 5:39), but in the wines of Palestine acetous fermentation, changing the wine into vinegar, was likely to occur at any time. Three years was about the longest time for which such wines could be kept, and “old wine” meant only wines that had been, stored for a year or more (Bab. Bath. 6 3).
See also CRAFTS, II, 19.
III. Use of Wine.
1. Mixed Wine:
In Old Testament times wine was drunk undiluted, and wine mixed with water was thought to be ruined (Isaiah 1:22). The “mixed” or “mingled wines” (see I, 1, (5), above) were prepared with aromatic herbs of various sorts and some of these compounds, used throughout the ancient world, were highly intoxicating (Isaiah 5:22). Wine mixed with myrrh was stupefying and an anesthetic (Mark 15:23). At a later period, however, the Greek use of diluted wines had attained such sway that the writer of 2 Maccabees speaks (15:39) of undiluted wine as “distasteful” (polemion). This dilution is so normal in the following centuries that the Mishna can take it for granted and, indeed, R. Eliezer even forbade saying the table-blessing over undiluted wine (Berakhoth 7 5). The proportion of water was large, only one-third or one-fourth of the total mixture being wine (Niddah 2 7; Pesachim 108b).
NOTE.
The wine of the Last Supper, accordingly, may be described in modern terms as a sweet, red, fermented wine, rather highly diluted. As it was no doubt the ordinary wine of commerce, there is no reason to suppose that it was particularly “pure.”
2. Wine-Drinkinig:
Throughout the Old Testament, wine is regarded as a necessity of life and in no way as a mere luxury. It was a necessary part of even the simplest meal (Genesis 14:18 Judges 19:19 1 Samuel 16:20 Isaiah 55:1, etc.), was an indispensable provision for a fortress (2 Chronicles 11:11), and was drunk by all classes and all ages, even by the very young (Lamentations 2:12 Zechariah 9:17). “Wine” is bracketed with “grain” as a basic staple (Genesis 27:28, etc.), and the failure of the winecrop or its destruction by foreigners was a terrible calamity (Deuteronomy 28:30, 39 Isaiah 62:8; Isaiah 65:21 Micah 6:15 Zephaniah 1:13, etc.). On the other hand, abundance of wine was a special token of God’s blessing (Genesis 27:28 Deuteronomy 7:13 Amos 9:14, etc.), and extraordinary abundance would be a token of the Messianic age (Amos 9:13 Joel 3:18 Zechariah 9:17). A moderate “gladdening of the heart” through wine was not looked upon as at all reprehensible (2 Samuel 13:28 Esther 1:10 Psalm 104:15 Ecclesiastes 9:7; Ecclesiastes 10:19 Zechariah 9:15; Zechariah 10:7), and while Judges 9:13 represented a mere verbal remnant of a long-obsolete concept, yet the idea contained in the verse was not thought shocking. “Drink offerings,” indeed, were of course a part of the prescribed ritual (Leviticus 23:13, etc.; see SACRIFICE), and a store of wine was kept in the temple (tabernacle) to insure their performance (1 Chronicles 9:29). Even in later and much more moderate times, Sirach writes the laudation of wine in 31:27, and the writer of 2 Maccabees (see above) objects as strongly to pure water as he does to pure wine. Christ adapted Himself to Jewish customs (Matthew 11:19 parallel Luke 7:34 Luke 22:18), and exegetes usually suppose that the celebrated verse 1 Timothy 5:23 is meant as a safeguard against ascetic (Gnostic?) dualism, as well as to give medical advice.
This is from wcg.org – alcohol/biblwine
Naturally fermented wine is between 10 percent and 14 percent alcohol. Higher alcoholic wines are fortified wines. On such special occasions God even allowed use of what is translated as “strong drink.” This term comes from a different Hebrew word—shekar—which is used 22 times in the Old Testament, and refers to alcoholic drinks made from dates and other fruit.
The high alcoholic drinks called hard liquor today (40 percent to 50 percent alcohol, or 80 to 100 proof) did not exist in Bible times. They are produced by distilling grain-based mash or material from other vegetable sources. They did not come into widespread use until the Middle Ages. The danger of these high alcoholic drinks is that, unless one dilutes them, they rapidly lend themselves to abuse, drunkenness and alcoholism. (Liqueurs, flavored and sweetened distilled liquors, are somewhat different in that they are usually served in small amounts and sipped slowly.)
The Bible says that God gave wine to make men glad (Ps. 104:15). Why have some people turned this blessing of God into a curse? The answer, as explained in other articles in this series, is that many people do not follow God’s instructions.
A blessing of wine was prophesied as a heritage to the chosen people in Genesis 27:28: “Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine [tirosh].” The Hebrew word tirosh, meaning “new wine,” is used in 38 places in the Old Testament. People sometimes conclude that this word means grape juice, or fresh-pressed juice of the vine. However, Hosea 4:11 states: “Whoredom and wine [yayin} and new wine [tirosh] take away the heart.” Grape juice could not have this effect. Tirosh is an intoxicating wine if used in excess.
John the Baptist did not drink wine (oinos in the Greek) or any other form of alcohol because it was prophesied that he wouldn’t (Luke 1:15). However, Jesus Christ did drink oinos (wine) (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:34). Jesus did not preach against the use of wine; instead he did like most other Jews of his day. He drank wine in moderation. In ancient times it was normally diluted with water for drinking, and was one of the principal beverages in Palestine at that time—as it is today.
Jesus’ first miracle was to change water into wine (oinos). Some people who preach total abstinence claim that this miracle was to turn water into grape juice. Nonsense! Imagine if you can an elaborate Jewish wedding banquet where everyone drank only grape juice! (The ancients did not have refrigeration or any other method of preventing grape juice from fermenting.)
On this occasion Christ turned six jars of 20 or 30 gallons each into wine (oinos). This was no small miracle. This wine was of the finest quality— “You have kept the good wine until now” (John 2:10). At such wedding feasts, after people had drunk the better wine, the hosts brought out lesser-quality wines.
Jesus gave a parable involving the fermenting process of oinos in Matt. 9:17. At that time, instead of having metal or glass bottles to enclose wine, the skins of animals were used. The fermentation of the wine would break an old inelastic skin, but it would not break a new stretchable skin.
Another proof that oinos is fermented wine is the fact that the apostle Paul said, “Be not drunk with wine [oinos]” (Eph. 5:18). Paul did not mean to avoid getting drunk on grape juice! Paul instructed Timothy, “Drink no longer water, but use a little wine [oinos] for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities” (1 Tim. 5:23). He said to use only a little wine, not a whole lot. The purpose of this wine was Timothy’s frequent stomach ailments; small amounts of wine can help some stomach problems.
Some of the Corinthians Christians were getting drunk at the Lord’s Supper (1 Cor. 11:21). They were using fermented wine, probably following the example that Paul had set for them. Paul did not tell them that they were using the wrong kind of wine. He simply told them to eat and drink at home, and to participate in the Lord’s Supper in a respectful way. In Romans 14:21, Paul says that it is good not to drink wine or eat meat if it offends a weak brother. He is referring to fermented wine; grape juice wouldn’t offend anyone. The implication is that there’s nothing wrong with the wine in itself, only if it offends a weak brother.
Abuse, drunkenness condemned
Both the Old and New Testaments contain many examples and commands against excessive use of alcohol and drunkenness. Drunkenness is listed as one of the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:21). That means it is the result of the undisciplined, indiscriminate use of alcohol. Jesus warned his followers not to be drunk (Luke 21:34).
The apostle Paul told the Corinthian church to “put away from among yourselves”—to have no fellowship—with a person who cannot control his or her drinking (1 Cor. 5:11-13). This refers to people who will not face up to or try to overcome drinking problems, not people who are working on and overcoming their problems. The Bible says that drunkards will not enter the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-10, Gal. 5:21). No one who abuses alcohol should be ordained an elder in the ministry of Jesus Christ (1 Tim. 3:3, 8, Tit. 1:7). If a minister drinks, it should be in moderation.
Throughout the Bible, God criticizes those who are “mighty to drink” (Isa. 5:22). Excessive drinkers are committing an evil (Prov. 23:20-21, Isa. 28:1-8). The improper use of wine makes wine a mocker and deceiver (Prov. 20:1). Those who “tarry long over wine” and spend a great deal of time in drinking will find all kinds of woe, sorrow and trouble (Prov. 23:29-30).
Total alcohol prohibitionists focus on the scriptures that condemn or show the results of wrong alcohol use, but neglect those scriptures that show there can be a proper moderate use.
Outstanding antiseptic
Another use of wine that has been recognized for millennia is the antiseptic qualities of wine. The germ-killing qualities of wine are greater than the same proportion of alcohol in water – and a good natural wine is not as damaging to the flesh as some strong antiseptics are.
Jesus showed he knew the benefits of wine as an antiseptic when he gave the parable of the good Samaritan. In this case a man had been injured and had a severe wound. The good Samaritan “bound up his wounds, pouring in [olive] oil and wine [oinos]” (Luke 10:34). The oil mollified or softened the flesh; the wine helped kill bacteria.
This is from – Kosher Wine – Procedure for production of Mevushal wines
As mentioned above, when kosher wine is mevushal (”cooked” or “boiled”), it thereby becomes unfit for idolatrous use and will keep the status of kosher wine even if subsequently touched by an idolater.
Traditionally, this edict was followed literally. The boiling process killed most of the fine mold or “must” on the grapes, and greatly altered the tannins and flavours of the wine. The result was typically a weak, insipid wine. Rather than being full red in colour, it often displayed an opaque, permanganate-coloured tone.
Later, the process was modified to require only that wine be heated to 90 degrees Celsius. (At this temperature, the wine is not bubbling, but it is cooking, in the sense that it will evaporate much more quickly than usual.) This managed to reduce some of the damage done to the wine, but still had a substantial effect on flavour.
Role of wine in Jewish holidays and rituals
Almost all Jewish holidays, especially the Passover Seder where all present drink four cups of wine, on Purim for the festive meal, and on the Shabbat require obligatory blessings over filled cups of kosher wine that are then drunk. (However, if no wine is present, the blessing over challah suffices). At Jewish marriages, circumcisions, and at Redemption of First-born ceremonies, the obligatory blessing of Borei Pri HaGafen (”Blessed are you O Lord, Who created the fruit of the vine”) is almost always recited over kosher wine (or grape juice).
According to the teachings of the Midrash, the “forbidden fruit” that Eve ate and which she gave to Adam was the grape from which wine is derived, though many would contest this and say that it was in fact a fig. The capacity of wine to cause drunkenness with its consequent loosening of “inhibitions” is described by the ancient rabbis in Hebrew as nichnas yayin, yatza sod (”wine enters, [and one's personal] secret[s] exit”), similar to the Latin “in vino veritas”. Another similarly evocative expression relating to wine is: Ein Simcha Ela BeBasar Veyayin—”There is no joy except through [eating] meat and [drinking] wine”.)
This is from my post called ‘Wine.’
The Haggadah (Hebrew: הגדה) is a Jewish religious text that sets out the order of the Passover Seder. Haggadah, meaning “telling,” is a fulfillment of the scriptural commandment to each Jew to “tell your son” about the Jewish liberation from slavery in Egypt, as described in the book of Exodus in the Torah.
Sephardi and Oriental Jews also apply the term Haggadah to the service itself, as it constitutes the act of “telling your son“.
According to Jewish tradition the Haggadah was compiled during the Mishnaic and Talmudic periods, although the exact date is unknown.
The Haggadah could not have been written earlier than the time of Rabbi Yehudah bar Elaay (circa 170 CE) who is the last tanna to be quoted in the Haggadah. According to most Talmudic commentaries Rav and Shmuel argued on the compilation of the Haggadah,[1] and hence it wasn’t completed by then. Based on a Talmudic statement, it was completed by the time of Rav Nachman (mentioned in Pesachim 116a). There is a dispute however to which Rav Nachman, the Talmud was referring. According to some commentators this was Rav Nachman bar Yaakov[2] (circa 280 CE) while others maintain this was Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak (360 CE).[3]
However the Malbim,[4] along with a minority of commentators believe that Rav and Shmuel were not arguing on its compilation but on its interpretation and hence was completed before then. According to this explanation; the Haggadah was written during the lifetime of Rav Yehudah haNasi,[5] the compiler of the Mishna. The Malbim theorizes that the Haggadah was written by Rav Yehudah haNasi himself.
This is from – Passover_Seder
The Passover Seder Meal (Hebrew: סֵדֶר, seðɛɾ, “order”, “arrangement”) is a Jewish ritual feast held on the first and the second nights of the Jewish holiday of Passover (which begins on the 15th day of Hebrew month of Nisan). For Reform Jews and in Israel, the Seder is held only on the first night.
According to the Gregorian calendar, the holiday comes out in late March or in April. Families and friends gather around the table on the nights of Passover to read one of the many versions of the Haggadah, the story of the Israelite exodus from Egypt. Seder customs include drinking of four cups of wine, eating matza and partaking of symbolic foods placed on the Passover Seder Plate.
This is from biblestudy.org – Biblical Holy Days: The Order and Meaning of the Christian Passover
From Christ in the Passover by Ceil and Moishe Rosen, pages 50-59, we learn that the Jewish traditional seder service had four cups of wine, in this order:
Blessing over the first cup of wine by the head of the feast (the host)
Ceremonial washing of hands by the host
Dipping of the bitter herbs
Second cup of wine poured
Asking questions by the youngest son (”why is this night different?” etc.. following Exodus 12:26)
Singing of first part of Hallel, Psalms 113, 114, and drinking of second cup of wine
Washing of hands the second time, as an act of respect for the unleavened bread they were about to eat
Blessings over the bread
Eating of the bread, dipped in bitter herbs
Eating of the Paschal lamb
After supper, the host poured the third cup of wine, a blessing was said, and everyone drank it
The second portion of the Hallel, Psalms 115-118 recited
Drinking of fourth cup
Closing song or hymn.
During the eating of the Old Testament Passover lamb with the disciples, the Messiah instituted NEW ordinances, to replace the old ones. As I Corinthians 11:20-34 indicates, the Old Testament Passover meal of lamb and bitter herbs is no longer to be observed. The Hebrew Seder helps us understand Luke 22, as well as what the Savior did in attaching special significance to the bread and one of the cups of the Old Testament Passover. Luke 22:17-18 was the first cup. Notice that Luke shows that the Messiah attached no special significance to this cup. The bread, which followed, He did make special, symbolizing His body given for us, verse 19. Of this, and not the first cup, He said, “this do in remembrance of me.” Likewise, the cup after supper (the third cup of the Old Testament traditional Passover meal), the Savior being the host, took, gave thanks, Matthew 26:27. In Luke 22:20 He said “This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me,” I Corinthians 11:25. It was this cup, after supper, that joined the earlier symbolic bread, to become part of the New Testament Passover.
The institution of the Passover in Exodus 12 shows only the Passover lamb, unleavened bread, and bitter herbs. Nothing is said about cups of wine with Passover. This was a Jewish tradition added later. Surely our Savior kept no Jewish customs, or did He?
He did! By the first century A.D., the Passover service had the hymns, hand washing and four cups of wine. The celebrants reclined at the table in the Babylonian custom of free men (as opposed to Exodus 12:11). The Son of man kept this custom! Notice John 13:25, 21:20. They were in a reclining position, so John could virtually lean on the Master’s breast.
Luke mentions two of the four cups, the first and the third. Early Jewish tradition says these were the most important. The first cup was special because it consecrated the entire Passover service that followed. The Savior said that this Passover service would be the last one He would observe with them until the Kingdom of God, Luke 22:14-18. Tradition says that the third cup was the most important of all. It was called the “cup of blessing” or the “cup of redemption,” because it represented the blood of the Paschal lamb. This third cup became the symbol of the shed blood of the Savior, the blood of the New Testament, Luke 22:20, the Christian “cup of blessing,” I Corinthians 10:16.
Where does footwashing fit in? Followers of the Watchtower movement keep the annual Passover on Nisan 14 with the bread and wine. Yet strangely enough, they do not follow the footwashing ceremony shown in John 13:1-17. When does this important aspect of the Passover occur in the New Testament order of service?
John 13:2 (KJV) says “and supper being ended.” Verses 4-5 show that the Savior rose from supper and washed the disciples’ feet. It sounds like the footwashing should be after the supper; as is also the wine, Luke 22:20.
A poor translation is to blame for this misunderstanding. The literal Greek says “and supper taking place.” The Revised Standard Version says, “and during supper.” So the footwashing was not after the bread and wine, but before them, during the Passover meal. This act was no doubt an extension of the second hand washing (item #7 of the traditional Passover service, as shown above). Washing was preparatory to receiving the unleavened bread. The Savior sanctified this new act, stating that it was an example for us to follow, John 13:14-17. Will we follow what He said for us to do, in exactly the way He said?
Before we partake of the New Testament Passover symbols of bread and wine, we must be prepared mentally, by going through a physical act of footwashing to learn humility, and demonstrate humble service to our brethren.
The order of the New Testament Passover service depicts the life of the Messiah:
His humble service to mankind (footwashing)
His beaten body for our physical sins and infirmities (unleavened bread), I Peter 2:20-25 Isaiah 50:6-7 (bread)
His blood poured out for our sins, John 19:34, Isaiah 53:10-12 (wine)
Any other order of service does not depict the proper spiritual lesson we are to learn. Sincere people, wanting to do what is right, may not always have the proper understanding in this matter. The Eternal is the judge. We who desire to worship the Creator in spirit (attitude) and in truth (exactly as He says), John 4:24, should follow the proper order of service..
The apostle Paul received an order of service from the Master and he delivered the same to us, not deviating from it one iota, I Corinthians 11:23-25. Will we deviate from it? It does make a difference, Revelation 22:18-19, Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32.
We now have at least three major proofs that the proper order of the New Testament Passover service is footwashing, unleavened bread, and wine:
(1) The witness of scripture, many scriptures,
(2) the witness of tradition, that of the ancient Jews, the New Testament Church, and the 19th and 20th century churches of God.
(3) The witness of scriptural object lessons, the meaning behind the physical rituals.
This is from Godandscience – doctrine WINE
‘Go eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do’ Ecl. 9 7
‘..your kisses are like the best wine that goes down smoothly, gliding over lips and teeth’ Song of S. 7 9
‘Thou doest cause the grass to grow for the cattle….and wine to gladden the heart of man..’ Psalm 104 14
Most of Jesus’ parables were about vineyards. He used wine and wineskins, and vines, and winepresses to illustrate spiritual points.
His first miracle was turning water into wine. Gallons and gallons of the best wine for a party.
John the Baptist did not drink wine (Luke 1:15 & 7:33) but Jesus did drink wine, and was even accused of being a drunkard. (Luke 7:34)
Paul advised Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach.(1 Tim. 5:23.)
Jesus gave wine the highest honour of representing His precious blood during the last supper, and asks His followers to use wine in remembrance of His death until He comes. (Luke 22: 18-20)
In Deuteronomy 14 God tells the Israelites to bring their tithes in to the place of His choosing once a year to rejoice before Him. In His clear instructions He gives them the freedom of choice to spend the money on whatever they want in the way of food and drink. Not only is wine given Yahweh’s clearance, but so is ’strong drink’!
“Go to the place which the Lord your God chooses, and spend the money for whatever you desire. Oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves, and you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice.”
Note that is was alright to drink or not to drink wine or strong drink. It was the individual’s choice made before God.
Jesus likened the Kingdom of God to a wedding feast or celebration or a wedding party, and He was likening it to a Jewish wedding!. Our solemn piety might leave us feeling a little bit out of place at such a celebration before the Lord.
Wisdom is said to have mixed her wine in furnishing her table (Prov. 9:2). Wine might be drunk with milk (Song 5:1). Melchizedek brought wine and bread to Abraham when Abraham returned from battle (Gen. 14:18). Wine was offered by the old man of Gibeah to the traveling Levite (Judg. 19:19). Jesse sent David with bread, a skin of wine, and a young goat as a present when Saul was fighting the Philistines (1 Sam. 16:20). Abigail brought David two skins of wine (1 Sam. 25:18). Strongholds were supplied with “wine” in case of siege (2 Chron. 11:11)
The tribes of Issachar, Zebulun, and Naphtali brought wine to David (1 Chr.12-40) when David was made king. Ziba brought David wine as he fled from Abasalom (2 Sam. 16:1–2). Job’s children were drinking wine at their brother’s house when disaster struck (Job 1:13, 18). Wine was on the list of supplies that the Persians furnished the captive Jewish people when they returned to Jerusalem (Ezra 6:9; 7:22). “And whatever they need . . . wheat, salt, wine, and oil according to the request of the priests who are in Jerusalem . . .” (6:9).
Wine was also used as medicine. It was said to revive the faint (2 Sam. 16:2) and was suitable as a sedative for people in distress (Prov. 31:6). Mixed with a drug, it was used to ease suffering (Matt. 27:34; Mark 15:23). The Samaritan poured oil and wine on the wounds of the injured traveler (Luke 10:34).
So quite clearly, unmistakably, scripturally, wine is a good gift from God.
Paul warns us of deceitful spirits who will.. ‘forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer, 1 Tim. 4 1-5
However like all of God’s blessings, such as wine, and sexuality, we can, through the lusts of the flesh, and the prompting of our adversary, so easily allow the blessing to become a curse.
And so God’s word is firm on such abuses.
‘And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery’ Eph. 5 18
‘..not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard or robber.’ 1 Cor. 5 11
We can eat too much, or debase our God given sexuality and the Bible has many examples and warnings against such behaviour. Never do we contemplate forbidding Godly eating, or Godly lovemaking. Rather we preach wisely against gluttony and we preach forcefully against the wrongful use of our sexuality.
The same principle must be applied to wine. Exactly as God applies it.
‘Deacons must be serious, not double tongued, not addicted to much wine..’ 1 Tim. 3 8
Any good thing God gives us can be easily abused and turned into a curse.
Amongst the first things Noah did when he emerged safe and sound out of the ark was to plant a vineyard.
However, he abused the gift of wine, fell down on top of his bed, drunk and naked. One of his sons, Ham, saw him in this state and told his brothers, presumably having a laugh at his father’s dishonourable state.
Noah awoke, presumably still under the influence of the wine, and instead of apologising for his foolishness , he placed a curse on Ham, the son who had not correctly honoured him, and out of this unfortunate son, came Canaan, and through Canaan came so much of the troubles that God’s chosen people had to contend with in the promised land in years to come. Noah blessed the other sons Shem and Japeth, and out of Shem came Abraham, and the Jewish nation, the children God chose for Himself to reveal His glory through.
Wine resulted in a family split, and a family line at war with each other. A warring family line that is still outworking that original curse in the cauldron of the middle east at this very moment in time.
A family split eventually became nations split.
All over a righteous man’s abuse of one of God’s gifts to him.
For our doctrine to be God’s doctrine it must be able to accommodate everything God has to say about it. We cannot hold on to the negative scriptures alone and build a man made doctrine which of necessity must then turn a blind eye to the positive scriptures.
First, wine was a long standing part of the nation’s stable diet and Jesus stated as a fact that Jewish people knew that old wine was much better than new wine. Luke 5:39) The wedding guests immediately recognised this wine that He supplied for the party as being ‘the best wine’ which meant that it was recognised as aged, full bodied and well refined wine.
God’s idea of the best wine is stated clearly for us in Isaiah 25:6
And in this mountain
The Lord of hosts will make for all people
A feast of choice pieces,
A feast of wines on the lees,
Of fat things full of marrow,
Of well-refined wines on the lees
Secondly, and more basically, ‘wine’ is fermented grape juice. The natural sugar ferments and turns to alcohol. Sometimes the juice was preserved in its unfermented state and drunk as ‘must’ but not as ‘wine’ If wine was to be kept for some time, a certain amount of ‘lees’ was added to give it body. The wine was consequently required to be “refined” or strained previous to being brought to the table.
Indeed, after reviewing Hebrew words used for wine, Smith’s Bible dictionary comments.. “It has been disputed whether the Hebrew wine was fermented; but the impression produced on the mind by a general review of the above notices is that the Hebrew words indicating wine refer to fermented, intoxicating wine”
There are preachers who tell us that the wine in the last supper was non alcoholic. There is no scriptural or historical mandate for such a conclusion.
The wine used in the New Testament church was alcoholic wine, because Paul gave off to them about over eating over drinking and getting drunk at church.
‘When you meet together it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat. For in eating each one goes ahead with his own meal, and one is hungry and another is drunk. What, do you not have houses to eat and drink in?”
There is the theory that wine was only used to purify the water. Jesus drank wine, John the Baptist did not. The water did John no harm. No where in scripture does it say that God gave us wine to purify water. Scripture says that wine is to ‘gladden the heart’ (Psalm 104:14)
Aaron, set apart by God to minister to God’s people was told that if he went into the sanctuary with drink he would be killed.
“Drink no wine nor strong drink, you nor your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations.” Lev. 10 9
“The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.” Matthew 11:19
We’ll let Jesus have the final words on the fruit of the vine. At the last supper He told His disciples
that from now on, – meaning of course that He had enjoyed sharing the fruit of the vine with them previously, right up until this awesome moment in history, when He designated wine as the sacramental symbol of the precious Blood that He would soon be shedding to cut the New Covenant between God and man.
“From now on, I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the Kingdom of God comes” (Luke 22 18)
or as Mark records His words.. “Truly I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the Kingdom of God.” (Mark 14 25)
Jesus was going back to the Father as their mediator, as our mediator. To intercede for us, to pray for us, to mediate like a barrister on our behalf until that day of the great party – The wedding feast of the Lamb.
The bridegroom will have His spotless wife. Like Jacob finally getting Rachael, the bride he wanted, and worked for, Jesus will be inviting us to the wedding feast where the banner over us will be love, and then and only then, will He be free to drink the wine again with all His disciples.
Revelation 19 verse 9..’And the angel said to me, “Write this – Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.”
That table is being prepared for us right now, in the presence of our enemies – those terrible powers of darkness in heavenly places who continue to bring such pain to God’s creation.
The fruit of the vine is God’s gift to us to gladden our hearts, and as with all good gifts from above, it is to be used with wisdom in order that it should be a blessing in our lives and not a gift that has been hijacked by the devil and transformed by his evil touch into a curse.
And the fruit of the vine is divinely symbolic when blessed and set apart to remind us of what Jesus did for us on Calvary, nearly 2,000 years ago, and to remind us that one day we will be sharing the fruit of the vine anew with Him at the marriage feast.
We have all been invited.
When we witness for Him, we are merely handing out His invitations to drink wine new with Him in heaven.
Here are all the Old Testament scripture references to wine from Jesus-is-Lord wine2
Here are all the New Testament scripture references to wine from Jesus-is-Lord wine3
END
I could give you much more information concerning this issue, but I think this will suffice for now.
Thank you for listening,
777denny
Denny you ask me (Jimmy) to comment on your Blog.
First you stated “Grape juice Evangelicalism teaches that Christ’s first miracle was not turning jars of water into wine at the wedding banquet he attended, but instead turning those jars of water into grape juice.” You are in error!
In the Bible “wine” is a generic term and it can denote either fresh juice or a fermented beverage; the context must determine which. Where is the contextual evidence in John 2:1-11 that even remotely suggests that the Son of God provided between 120 and 180 gallons of alcoholic beverage for the wedding feast of Cana? Let me you some questions, if fermented, intoxicating drink, you have a number of problems in your doctrine:
1. Did the sinless Christ (1 Peter 2:22) do that which was strictly forbidden in the Law, look upon fermented wine (Prov. 23:31)?
2. Did Jesus give His neighbor drink, in defiance of (Hab. 2:15)? Why would the Word made flesh violate the word of God?
3. Did Jesus provide a beverage as to make hundreds drink in defiance of dozens of passages that condemn drunkenness?
The answer to all no! Jesus could not have been sinless (Heb. 4:15), and given intoxicating wine to the patrons of the feast in Cana. The truth of the matter is, the context indicates that the wine used on this occasion was not fermented. Read John 2:10, “When the men drunk freely” (ASV). This does not mean that they were intoxicated, it means when they have drunk sufficient. In the context “good wine” means good, or the best wine, which was harmless or innocent. The wine referred to here was the pure juice of the grape.
Again, you wrote, “Grape juice Evangelicalism has twisted this very thing and claims that Christ gave his disciples grape juice . . . So they have substituted grape juice for real wine, and leavened bread for unleavened bread.” Again you are in error, and teaching falsely. “Which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as (they do) also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16). You have made a serious mistake!
When Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper He naturally used the elements that were used during the Passover meal (Matt. 26:17-19). All leaven was to be removed from the houses (Exo. 12:19). Strong notes that both Hebrew words translated “leaven” include the idea of fermentation. So when Moses commanded that no “leaven” should be found in the houses this must have included that which is fermented! Therefore Jesus could not have used fermented drink or leaven when He instituted the Lord’s Supper.
Notice further that no leaven was to be used in blood sacrifices (Exo. 23:18; 34:25); if leaven (fermentation) was not to be used in blood sacrifices, which was just a type of our real Passover (1 Cor. 5:7), what makes you believe that Jesus would have us to use fermented wine to remember the blood HE shed (Matt. 26:28)?
That Jesus used unfermented juice of the grape is made clear in that He specifically referred to this juice as “fruit of the vine” (Matt. 26:29; Mk. 14:25; Lk. 22:18). If Jesus would have left it up to us to choose the type of juice we would use (other passages notwithstanding), He would have used the Greek word oinos which includes the juice of the grape in all its stages. Bacchiocchi notes that “the noun “fruit” (gennema) denotes that which is produced in a natural state, just as it is gathered. Fermented wine is not the natural “fruit of the vine” but the unnatural fruit of fermentation and decay (Wine In The Bible, p. 49). Josephus, a historian living during the time of the apostles, confirms that “fruit of the vine” refers to freshly squeezed grapes, not fermented wine. He says, “…he saw three clusters of grapes…and that he squeezed them into a cup …he let him know that God bestows the fruit of the vine upon men for good” (The Antiquities Of The Jews, 2,5, 2, 64-66). Thus history proves that “fruit of the vine” refers to unfermented grape juice, not fermented wine as you stated. There is no possible way Jesus authorized us to use fermented wine in partaking of the Lord’s Supper!
Now lets us look at your list you say this Movement is in error (1-38)
1. False
2. False
3. False
4. False
5. False (1 Pet 3:5)
6. False (1 Cor. 11:15)
7. False (1 Cor. 11:14)
8. False (Gal. 5:4)
9. False
10. False (Rev. 22:9)
11. False (Rev. 22:9)
12. We are to abstain from all appearance of evil (1 Thess 5:21)
13. You don’t the Bible do you? 1 Corinthians 11:18 says, “For first of all, when ye come together in the church”. We are to come together, to partake of the Lord’s Supper (1 Cor. 11:20; Acts 20:7); sing praises unto God (Eph. 5:19); to give of our means (1 Cor. 16:1-2) to pray, and give heed to the doctrine of Christ (Acts 2:42ff).
14. False (1 Cor. 13:8)
15. #13. I can see you don’t believe in assembling with the saints for service to God (Heb. 10:25).
16. False (Holy Spirit leads through the Word.
17. False
18. False (rapture is not even found in the Bible)
19. False (Gal. 3:28)
20. False no such thing as the Great tribulation (False doctrine like the Rapture).
21. False
22. False (Prov. 1:7)
23. False (1 Cor 10:12)
24. False (Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16)
25. False read # 13 plus their more to Christian living
26. False
27. False
28. True ( If you talking Armageddon, you are wrong). Read Revelation 16, Are literal frogs going to fight the battle of Armageddon? If one expects this to be literal, material battle, he must expect the army to be headed by a committee of three frogs. The pre-millennial view of the battle of Armageddon is totally false. On the went Christ returns he will divide the sheep from the goats.
29. False (Gal. 1:6-9; 2 John 9-11)
30. True You better read John 3:16; Rom 5:8.
31. False (2 Thess. 1:7-9)
32. False (As Christians we are to elect people who stand for God’s word)
33. False
34. False (Matt. 28:18-20)
35. False
36. False (Prov. 6:16-19)
37. False (Exo 20:7)
38. We take Grape fruit because it is commanded. But is not all we do in the Christian life, we follow in the foot steps of Christ.
I will be happy to talk to you more about any of these points.
The claim is sometimes made, though, that in Bible times there was no method for preserving grape juice in an unfermented state. Therefore, “wine” must have had some alcoholic content. That is not true. The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary cites ancient skills for the preservation of grape juice all year long. In your margin you may wish to write this note: See ZPBD, p. 895.
The ancient Roman statesman, Cato, said: “If you wish to have must [grape-juice] all year, put grape-juice in an amphora and seal the cork with pitch; sink it in a fishpond. After 30 days take it out. It will be grape-juice for a whole year” (De Agri Cultura CXX).
Jimmy,
Let me know if I am right, but are you in agreement with every point I have made except 12, 13, 15, 28, 30 and 38?
About the grapejuice versus wine argument, did you happen to read all the above comment I made right before your comment? I believe I have decimated virtuously all of your arguments on this issue, if you care to read it.
Anyway, I am not here to argue, or even debate, unless it is done in love and honestly. I am come to warn all Christians to fear and tremble before their God and do the first commandment of God before we enter the Great Tribulation Period. If they do this and study to show themselves a workman that needeth no reproof, then they will need that no man teach them, for the Holy Spirit will guide them to the truth and away from all false doctrines and teachings.
All the pride and arrogance of man will be laid low, for God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
http://777denny.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/christians-should-know-that-words-do-matter/
http://777denny.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/the-proud-christian-cannot-enter-the-kingdom-of-heaven/
http://777denny.wordpress.com/2008/03/07/can-christians-enter-heaven-without-being-holy/
http://777denny.wordpress.com/2008/03/06/the-fear-of-the-lord-is-what-christians-need/
http://777denny.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/once-saved-always-saved-doctrine-can-land-you-in-a-place-called-the-lake-of-fire/
Thank you for listening,
777denny
Denny,
Are Christians to be sober? Sober is the oppsite of Drunk. Most people surely understand this point. Being drunk is condemn in the scriptures (Gal 5:19-21). One is either sober or drunk, but not both. A common illustration is if it takes a person five drinks to get 100% drunk, then if he takes one drink, he is 1/5 drunk. The Lord commanded that we stay sober (1 Thess. 5:6, 8; 1 Pet. 1:13; 5:8.
The word sober in these passages mean, in the Analytical Greek Lexicon, to be sober, not intoxicated. In Vines Expository Dictionary of the New Testament Words, the word sober in these verses mean, it signifies to be free from intoxicants beverges.
But you have drinking intoxicants at the Lord’s Supper.
And Denny Did our Lord sin in John 2? “Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink” (Hab 2:15). Did Jesus give His neighbor drink? You say He did, thus you have Christ the sinless one sinning (2 Pet. 2:22). Did Jesus provide a beverage as to make hundreds to drink in defiance of dozens of passages that condemn drunkness? You do!
Jimmy,
Like I said, I am not here to argue. I have provided ample evidence that Jesus DID not only drink fermented wine, but it was His first miracle and sign to turn water into fermented wine.
If you had truly read ALL the information I have provide just directly above your first comment, you would plainly see that ALL denomations drank WINE before the advent of Welches GRAPE JUICE. You would also have learned that Jesus was celebrating the Passover with His disciples, and that they were indeed celebrating the Passover Seder in which there are four cups of wine. But it looks like Jesus finished the last cup when He drank the vinegar on the cross.
Notice that I have provided an abundant supply of information that you have either refused to read or refused to believe. Therefore, why should I even bother with you, since you do not seem to want to find the truth, but seem to want to argue your opinions.
I have ALREADY heard and researched just about any argument you can come up with and have decimated it already. If you do not like the facts I have cleary put forth as evidence of my claims, then you are certainly afforded your own opinion on this matter.
BTW, High priests were ONLY forbidden to drink fermened wine when they entered the inner court. Jesus did not enter the Holy of Holies until He entered the Holy of Holies made without hands in Heaven.
Hebrews 9:6 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place. 3 Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4 having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
6 Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship, 7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, 9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
Ezekiel 44:19 “When they go out into the outer court, into the outer court to the people, they shall put off their garments in which they have been ministering and lay them in the holy chambers; then they shall put on other garments so that they will not transmit holiness to the people with their garments. 20 “Also they shall not shave their heads, yet they shall not let their locks grow long; they shall only trim the hair of their heads. 21 “Nor shall any of the priests drink wine when they enter the inner court.
Thank you for listening,
777denny
Denny,
I have provided Bibical evidence that Jesus DID NOT drink fermented wine, but the fruit of the vine, grape juice.
Denny again i ask, are Christians to be sober? Sober is the oppsite of Drunk. Most people surely understand this point. Being drunk is condemn in the scriptures (Gal 5:19-21). One is either sober or drunk, but not both. A common illustration is if it takes a person five drinks to get 100% drunk, then if he takes one drink, he is 1/5 drunk. The Lord commanded that we stay sober (1 Thess. 5:6, 8; 1 Pet. 1:13; 5:8.
The word sober in these passages mean, in the Analytical Greek Lexicon, to be sober, not intoxicated. In Vines Expository Dictionary of the New Testament Words, the word sober in these verses mean, it signifies to be free from intoxicants beverges.
But you have drinking intoxicants at the Lord’s Supper.
And Denny Did our Lord sin in John 2? “Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink” (Hab 2:15). Did Jesus give His neighbor drink? You say He did, thus you have Christ the sinless one sinning (2 Pet. 2:22). Did Jesus provide a beverage as to make hundreds to drink in defiance of dozens of passages that condemn drunkness? You do!
Therefore, I will shake the dust from my feet, since you do not seem to want the truth, but want to stay with your false doctrine, a doctrine that teaches Christ sin, and was not perfect.
I do not argue for my opinions, but stand for the truth!. That’s the different between me and you.
Jimmy,
Why in the world would the Pharisees and Saducees call Jesus a drunkard and a glutton if He didn’t drink real wine?
What is your problem? Just because you don’t want to drink wine, why do you have to spoil it for everyone else?
Is that your mission in life, to be a wet blanket with respect to the gifts that God has given us?
Everything in life can be abused. What of it? That’s why He had to come and die on a cross for us.
Why not relax a little bit, enjoy life as best you can, drink wine or not, and bask in the forgiveness that our Lord has won on the cross for us?
Denny,
Why in the world would the Pharisees call Jesus the Prince of the demons if He really wasn’t one? (Matt, 9:34). By your argument Christ is demon because they said he was.
Why in the world would the Pharisees say that Jesus speaketh blasphemies if He really didn’t ? (Luke 5:21). Well, the Pharisees said it, so it must be true, Christ sin again by your argument.
Pharisees said this man (Christ) is not from God (John 9:16). So Denny by your argument because the Pharisees said it, it must be true.
Denny, I have no problem! Your the one who is calling grape juice drinkers false teachers! Plus. I ‘am not spoiling it for everyone else, I am just standing for the truth, and if others want to drink wine that is their right, but drinking alchol will sent people to hell (Gal. 5:19-21).
My mission in life is to live for Christ, teach His word and stand against false teachers (Eph. 5:11).
Denny, God did not make alchol, man makes alchol.
And I am relax, I count it all joy to stand for truth,
Goodbye, you won’t hear from me again!
Jimmy,
You are a moron. Sorry, you just are.
Jesus made water into wine…for people to drink.
At Jewish weddings they partied…hard.
Read and believe your Bible and stop being such a religious zealot concernong yourself with the actions of othere people.
You have become a Pharisee! Wake up!!!
Thank you oldadam,
you call me a moron, you tell me to read my Bible, I give passages for condemning wine, but you used no Bible!
Who better wake up, and read and believe the Bible?
Jimmy,
OK.
John 2:1-11 I thought you have been familiar with that story. Apparently not.
There are many other references in scripture to jesus and wine.
If that first reference doesn’t convince you then nothing else will either and you are just a hopeless case.
I hope not. I hope you are not that, Jimmy…I really do.
Did our Lord sin in John 2? “Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink” (Hab 2:15). Did Jesus give His neighbor drink? You say He did, thus you have Christ the sinless one sinning (2 Pet. 2:22). Did Jesus provide a beverage as to make hundreds to drink in defiance of dozens of passages that condemn drunkness? You do!
how can one be saved?
hear the word of God (1Cor. 1:17-23; Rom 10:14)
Believe (John 8:24)
Repent or perish (Luke 13:3)
Confess (Rom. 10:9-10)
Baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:3-5)
live a faithful life (Rev. 2:10)
What is your thinking on how one is saved?
Jimmy,
Do you actually believe that if a person takes one sip of alcohol that the person is therefore partly drunk?
You wrote: “A common illustration is if it takes a person five drinks to get 100% drunk, then if he takes one drink, he is 1/5 drunk.”
This is so common that I have never heard of such folly.
The Lord did command us to be sober, but of course this me not to be intoxicated.
You, of course, have taken Habakkuk 2:15 out of context.
“Woe to you who make your neighbors drink,
Who mix in your venom even to make them drunk
So as to look on their nakedness!”
As those who have eyes to see can clearly see, it is talking about getting your neighbors to drink ” … even to make them drunk so as to look on their nakedness!”
As far as Jesus is concerned about turning water into wine as His first miracle and sign, as far as I have researched, people were looked down upon if they became drunk. Weddings lasted up to a week, and although there is no indication that Jesus made deluted wine, wine was customerily watered down up to or above 1/4 wine to 3/4 water. Seeing that wine was between 10% to 14% alcohol, you see that a person would have to drink a tremendous amount to actually get drunk. But not according to your definition, because a mere thimble full would cause the person to not be sober, but instead, partly drunk.
Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. 33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. 34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. 35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
This is one of the favorites of those who believe that drinking alcohol is sin. Of course, they have taken this out of context, just like they distort the other scriptures concerning alcohol. This is talking about the ABUSE of alcohol, since it says in verses 33-35 what happens when someone is aboviously DRUNK with wine. Do you actually believe if someone takes a thimble full of wine they would reap such things?
I will give the following arguments against many of the postitions of Grapejuice Evangelicals against drinking fermented wine from letGodbetrue – Lackeys article on wine
I know this is much to read, but why read this when you can just as well use your same arguments against wine drinking? It is much easier to argue a point from your own opinions rather than from a great study to show thyself a workman who needeth no reproof.
Thank you for listening,
777denny
theoldadam,
Thanks for stopping by and giving a defense of the truth.
777denny
Notice what Denny says, “Wine by itself is not deceptive. Neither is wine a mocker or strong drink raging by itself. As this verse indicates (Prov 20:1), wine is only deceptive when it is used excessively and causes a man to disgrace himself or fall into a drunken rage. However, if wine is drunk in moderation, a man will not be mocked or shamed by his conduct, nor will he fall into a rage.”
Do see his argument? The Bible says wine is a mocker and strong drink raging, but Denny says only when it is excessively used; he adds his own opinion, the Bible doesn’t say only when used excessively. Lets use his arguments on another passage: “Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Matt. 5:27-28). Lusting after a woman in this passage is not adultery in the heart as this verse indicates, Adultery in the heart is only lusting when it is used excessively. How about another, “Thou shalt not steal” (Rom. 13:9); but Denny’s doctrine is it’s not sin if stealing is not done excessively. Denny’s argument is that the use of intoxicants is alright, but the abuse of them is wrong. The Bible doesn’t make that distinction.
Denny goes on and says, “Please note that the description of drinking in Proverbs 23:29-35 is only of those that “tarry long at the wine.” The listed characteristics of excessive drinking are never present with moderate consumption of alcoholic beverages.” Again he says, “Here again in Isaiah 5:11, the prohibition is NOT for all alcoholic beverages in general, but rather for the excessive use and continual pursuit of alcoholic drinks that leads to drunkenness and addiction. Isaiah 28:7-8 is referring to those who are “swallowed up of wine,” those who are drinking to excess and drunkenness, and are thereby “out of the way.”
Again notice he adds “not for all alcoholic beverages in general” to Isaiah 5:11. Did you read that in that verse? See, he is trying to explain that the Bible teaches is alright to drink alcoholic beverages as long it is the abuse. Why is he teaching this? I don’t know, maybe, he doesn’t want to spoil for everyone else? Maybe he doesn’t want to be a wet blanket ? Well Denny it takes one drink that leads to drunkenness and addiction! A lot of people wish they ever took the first drink. One picks up the bottle, and in time the bottle is in control. I want you to notice this passage: “Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, When it sparkleth in the cup, When it goeth down smoothly” Proverbs 23:31. This verse is a commandment to keep away from wine, to avoid even the temptation to drink, to avoid drinking wine the verse says, “Don’t even look upon it.” The only way to keep out of any bad habit is to stay as far from it as one can while depending upon God to help him. But Denny says “But nowhere in Scripture is the drinking of wine ever prohibited.” God says don’t look at it. If it is wrong to allow oneself to be lured into drinking of it, it is certainly wrong to drink it!
There is an interesting word found in the Greek New Testament which is translated “sober.” The word is “nepho” It is found in 1 Thessalonians 5:6, 8; 1 Peter 1:13; 4:7; and 5:8. Concerning this word, Strong writes, “abstain from wine (keep sober), i.e. (Fig.) be discreet; be sober, watch.” Arndt and Gingrich write on page 538, “be free from every form of mental and spiritual ‘drunkenness,’ from excess, passion, rashness, confusion, etc.” W.E. Vine says, “Signifies to be free from the influence of intoxicants.” Are Christians commanded to be sober? Yes! Is sober the opposite of drunk? Yes! Now if I take one drink of alcohol am I obeying the command to be sober? No! By taking one drink I am heading towards drunkenness, not being sober. One is either sober or drunk. Most people surely understand this point. If he takes an intoxicant into his system, he is thereby intoxicated (regardless of the fact that he may not be in a stupor), just as when he takes medicine into his system he can be said to be medicated (even though the full effect of the medicine is not yet experienced). But Denny says, “The Lord did command us to be sober, but of course this commands did not mean to be intoxicated.
Denny goes on and says, “Leviticus 10:9 proves beyond argument that the entire nation of Israel in the O.T. drank wine and strong drink. Notice that this verse is a prohibition for Aaron and the priests not to drink wine or strong drink when they were performing their priestly duties. They clearly drank when they were not performing their priestly duties. When not functioning as priests, they were free to drink wine or strong drink just like any other Israelite.”
I want us to notice this passage: “Drink no wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tent of meeting, that ye die not: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: and that ye may make a distinction between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean” Leviticus 10:9-10. The specific reason given for the prohibition to drink alcoholic beverages is that these would impair the priests’ ability to distinguish between the holy and the profane and to teach the people God’s commandments. The same reason is repeated in Ezekiel’s vision of the new temple (Ekekiel 44:23). Both passages make it clear that a constant discernment of God’s holiness requires abstention from alcoholic beverages. The fact that the priests had to avoid alcohol in order to preserve sanctuary sacredness and holiness implies that alcohol is seen in the Scripture as profane and unholy! In view of the fact, that as Christians we are “a royal priesthood” (1 Peter 2:9) called to be of “sound mind and sober” (1 Peter 4:7) in a world often insane and intemperate, God’s injunction to abstain from alcoholic beverages to preserve our moral discernment is especially relevant today. Man must understand alcohol is not a food, but a narcotic, poison, and depressant. It passes directly from the stomach into the blood steam, dangerously affecting the brain and liver. It has been reported that one beer kills six million brain cells. It has been scientifically proven that any amount of alcohol on the brain impairs efficiency. Also, Denny, You are wrong to draw the conclusion that it is forbidden to drink wine and strong drink only when in the act of entering the tabernacle of the congregation, but it is permissable to drink before entering the tabernacle. Leviticus 10:10, does not warrant such a conclusion. The obvious reason is that priests (and believers alike) must be able to discern God’s will at all times.
Denny goes on and says, “The Bible tells us plainly that God gave wine to man, and wine is most definitely a good gift from the great God of heaven for man’s pleasurable use and enjoyment.”
God didn’t make wine, man did! And notice Denny admits to this: “The making of bread is, like wine, a process that man must develop. Bread does not come naturally from the field. Man must process the grain and develop the bread just like he processes the grapes to develop wine. Neither process is natural.” It is truly remarkable that one would make the argument that if the pleasurable consumption of beverage alcohol is wrong, God would not have created it. The implication thus is: since liquors are here, the Lord must endorse them. Would Denny care to make the same argument with reference to cocaine , opium, or marijuana? While it is true that “every creature of God is good” (1 Timothy 4:4), it is good for the purpose for which it was created, and as Denny himself said “The making of bread is, like wine, a process that man must develop. Neither process is natural.” God never intended grapes, grain, the poppy, the marijuana plant, etc., be used as a recreational, mind-altering substances.
Denny goes on to say this: “We know also that Jesus drank alcoholic beverages because he explicitly said he did. First, note that John the Baptist was a Nazarite for life and was expressly prohibited from drinking any wine or strong drink because of the Nazarite vows (Luke 1:15). Now look at Luke 7:33-34 to see what Jesus said about John and what he said about himself. Jesus acknowledges in verse 33 that John did not drink wine. However, in verse 34 Jesus clearly acknowledges that he DID drink wine, the very thing that John did not drink. Here we have in unmistakable language from our Lord Jesus himself that he drank the same wine that John did not drink due to his vows.
Look at the verse “The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold, a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!” (Luke 7:34). Where it say he Jesus was drinking intoxicated wine, it says “drinking.” Jesus ate that which was common and drank that which was common. As wine was a common article of beverage among the people, he drank it. It was the pure juice of the grape and for anything that can be proved, it was without fermentation. The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine, nor drugged wine, nor wine compounded of various substances, such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which the simple juice of the grape. Then the question was asked “Why in the world would the Pharisees and the Sadducees call Jesus a drunkard and glutton if He didn’t drink real wine?” Pharisees said this man (Christ) is not from God (John 9:16). So by their argument because the Pharisees said it, it must be true.
Denny tells us that “Jesus did turn water to wine at the marriage feast in Cana. While he miraculously provided wine for many of the guests at the feast, he did not make anyone drunk in order to take advantage of him. Jesus provided wine for this feast to show his power as the Son of God and so that the festivities would not be brought to a premature end due to a lack of wine.”
Let me ask you did the sinless Christ (1 Peter 2:22) do that which was striclty forbidden in the Law, look upon fermented wine (Proverbs 23:31)? Did Jesus give His neighbor drink, in defiance of (Habakkuk 2:15)? Why would the Word made flesh violate the word of God? Did Jesus provide a beverage as to make hundreds drink in defiance of dozens of passages that condemn drunknness?
Underline the word “wine” in John 2:9 and in your margin write (Isaiah 16:10; Joel 2:24). Isaiah speaks of the “wine in the presses” and Joel writes about presses that overflow with wine. Obviously, the wine is what we would call grape juice. In biblical language, therefore, wine need not be an intoxicant.
But notice what Denny says, “we know that the wine of John chapter 2 is alcoholic because the English word “wine” only means alcoholic. There is no other kind of wine. Grape juice is not wine! And wine is not grape juice.”
Maybe He better read (isaiah 16:10; Joel 2:24)? The first-offering of wine (Numbers 18:12) was the fresh juice that resulted from the outflow of thy presses (Exodus 22:29). Also in Matthes 9:17 Jesus said that men do not put new wine (oinos) into old wine-skins: else the skins burst, and the wine spilled. The point of the Lord’s illustration was this: Old wine skins are stiff and brittle; if new wine is introduced into these containers, when it ferments, the skins will tear and the wine will be lost! It is clear, therefore, that the term wine in in the Bible may either be employed of fermented beverages or of the sweet juices, it is plain that contestual indications must decide the meaning of the term in a giving setting.
Denny, Jesus used unfermented juice of the grape is made clear in that He specifically referred to this juice as “fruit of the vine” (Matt. 26:29; Mk. 14:25; Lk. 22:18). If Jesus would have left it up to us to choose the type of juice we would use (other passages notwithstanding), He would have used the Greek word which includes the juice of the grape in all its stages. Bacchiocchi notes that the noun “fruit” (gennema) denotes that which is produced in a natural state, just as it is gathered.” Fermented wine is the natural (in which Denny admits to) fruit of the vine but the unnatural fruit of fermentation and decay (Wine In The Bible, p.49). There is no possible way Jesus authorized us to use fermented wine in partaking of the Lord’s Supper!
Then Denny tells us: Romans 14:21 teaches that a Christian is responsible to protect the weak consciences of other Christian brethren. This might mean that in certain company a Christian might not be able to eat meat offered to idols or to drink alcoholic beverages.
Do you notice how he throws in alcholic beverages every time wine is memtioned? We need to keep in mind that the discussion is about things indifferent – things right if done, and right if not done in the context of Romans 14. This verse shows that the kind of wine which Paul had in mind was the kind which comes within the realm of indifference. It is placed in the same category as “meats.” The word “wine” (the Greek oinos) definitely does not necessarily mean an intoxicant. The word in the context refers to the juice freshly squeezed from the grape. Why”? Because Paul is dealing with things indifferent.
I do not believe for a moment that the Lord would make something intoxicating. The very law under which He lived, and which He respected, forbade the drinking of intoxicants (Isa. 5:11-12; Prov. 20:1; 23:31; Hos. 4:11). The Christian will have nothing to do with the drinking of intoxicants! In Leviticus 10:8-l 1 we read that priests were not permitted by God to serve in the tabernacle if they were under the influence of intoxicants. The tabernacle was a type of the church. If God would not allow Levitical priests to imbibe alcoholic beverages, surely he will not allow we of the Christian priesthood to so do. This is a serious matter!
Denny goes on and says. “However, when at home, a Christian would not need to be concerned because the weak brother would not be there to be offended. Do you see what he is telling us? If your home and you can drink intoxicants. One wonders if one is at home Denny if one can take cocaine?
Denny says, “Another important text is Eph 5:18, which reads, “be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.” Notice that this verse is not a prohibition against drinking. This verse merely prohibits drinking so much that one becomes drunk.”
Notice he affirms that the phrase, “Be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess.” He is saying this permits the usage of lesser amounts. Such reasoning is incorrect for “excess” refers to results, not quantity. The word asoria (excess) is elsewhere rendered “riot” (Tit. 1:6; 1 Pet. 4:4); the adverb, “riotous” (Lk. 15:13). Thus, because of effects, we should not drink alcoholic beverages.
Then Denny says, “Notice also I Tim 3:3,8 where pastors and deacons were not to be given to wine or much wine. Again, this is in no way a prohibition against all drinking, even for pastors and deacons. They are to avoid being given to wine, that is, they are not to be drinking excessively or often. Pastors should not be given to wine. Deacons with less restriction are not to be given to much wine. Other members could drink as much as they desired short of drunkenness.”
One wonders according Denny doctrine what amount is short of dunkenness? Who decides this? Where is this found in the scriptures? I want all to notice with reference to the qualifications of an elder, Paul affirms that the candidate for the bishop must not be “not given to wine” or “addicted to wine” (1 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 1:7 KJV & NASB). The Greek expression paroinos, means “given to wine, drunken” (Thayer, Greek Lexicon, p. 490). To read into that some sort of license for moderate drinking is an irresponsible stretch. Would an adomonition against “drug addiction” grant any measure of comfort to someone wishing to “smoke pot” recreationally? Would such a warning be interpreted as a license for the moderate use of cocaine?
For deacons Paul’s restriction “not given to much wine” (1 Tim. 3:8). This provides no permission for the moderate use of recreational alcohol today. I want you to notice this fact, within the same context, church officers are charged to be “sober” (nepho), which signifies “to be free from the influence of intoxicants” (Vine, Expository Dictionsary , p. 746).
Also notice what Solomom said in Ecclesiastes 7:17, “Be not overmuch wicked.” To be consistent, those advocates who teach “not given to much wine” mean we can moderately drink alcohol, you would have you to affirm this means it is alright to be moderately wicked! When Peter noted that pagans do not understand why Christians do not engage in the “same excess of riot” (1 Peter 4:4); did he mean moderate rioting was appropriate? Denny, one cannot assume that what is unlawful in excess is lawful in smaller amounts.
Next Denny says, “Another text in the New Testament that clearly indicates that early Christians used alcoholic beverages is found in I Cor 11. In this passage we learn that many of the Christians at Corinth were getting drunk at the Lord’s table. But the Apostle Paul does not rebuke them for using wine instead of grape juice. He rather only rebukes them for getting drunk and ignoring those who didn’t have any wine to drink. This proves that Paul did not have any problem with drinking wine, but drunkenness at the Lord’s Table was a serious offence to Jesus Christ.”
“Hungry and drunken.” Methuei, drunken, being used as antithetical to peina, hungry, requires to be understood in the generic sense of satiated, and not in the restricted and emphatic sense of intoxicated. John 2:10 and 1 Corinthians 11:21, the word methuei does not denote drunkenness. The word denotes abundance. This does not mean that they were intoxicated, it means when they have drunk sufficient.
Last of all, Paul instructed Timothy to “use a little wine” for his stomach and infirmities (5:23). It is not a foregone conclusion that the “wine” Paul commended to Timothy was inebriating, since evidence from antiquity exists to suggest that he was referring to the addition of grape juice to Timothy’s drinking water for medicinal purposes (see Lees, 1870, p. 374). Even if, however, Paul meant for Timothy to add fermented (i.e., intoxicating) juice to his diet, he nevertheless implied: (1) that Timothy had been abstinent up to that point; (2) that the quantity he was now to add to his diet was to be “a little”; (3) that the juice was to be diluted with water; (4) that its use was strictly medicinal in nature-not social, casual, or recreational; and (5) that it took the directive of an apostle for Timothy to introduce its use into his life and body. Incidentally, one must not automatically assume that it was the wine that possessed medicinal properties. The wine may have simply been the antiseptic means to purify the polluted water that Timothy had been drinking by killing germs and bacterial organisms, thereby reducing their ill effect on Timothy’s fragile stomach-in which case, Paul was not commending wine; he was commending a method for cleansing contaminated water. If Paul sanctioned the use of alcohol only on the qualifications that it was in small quantities, and that it was for medicinal purposes, why would he then turn right around and sanction deacons drinking alcohol in larger amounts-avoiding only excess?
I know this is much to read, but why read this when you can just as well use your same arguments for wine drinking? It is much easier to argue a point from your own opinions rather than from a great study to show thyself a workman who needeth no reproof.
Thank you for listening, You won’t hear from me again!
Denny:
What church, churches or denominations are you talking about when you refer to Grapejuice Evangelicalism.
Jimmy,
So far as I can tell, you have twisted virtuously every verse you have quoted to agree with your twisted theology.
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise.
You have twisted this when it is obvious it is talking about whoever is INTOXICATED by it!
Proverbs 23:29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has contentions? Who has complaining?
Who has wounds without cause?
Who has redness of eyes?
30 Those who linger long over wine,
Those who go to taste mixed wine.
Do not look on the wine when it is red,
When it sparkles in the cup,
When it goes down smoothly;
32 At the last it bites like a serpent
And stings like a viper.
33 Your eyes will see strange things
And your mind will utter perverse things.
34 And you will be like one who lies down in the middle of the sea,
Or like one who lies down on the top of a mast.
35 “They struck me, but I did not become ill;
They beat me, but I did not know it.
When shall I awake?
I will seek another drink.”
I think anybody who is NOT wedded to twisted logic will come away from this saying that it is talking about getting INTOXICATED!
1 Thessalonians 5:5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
Being drunk is the opposite of being sober. Drinking alcohol up to the point of intoxication is being SOBER, because you are not DRUNK!
1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Again, drinking alcohol in moderation is NOT being drunk!
1 Peter 4: 7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.
Again, drinking in moderation is NOT being intoxicated with alcohol!
Isaiah 5:11 Woe to those who rise early in the morning that they may pursue strong drink,
Who stay up late in the evening that wine may inflame them!
I believe another quite obvious verse talking about drinking enough wine to make one INFLAMED by it!
Leviticus 10:8 The LORD then spoke to Aaron, saying, 9 “Do not drink wine or strong drink, neither you nor your sons with you, when you come into the tent of meeting, so that you will not die—it is a perpetual statute throughout your generations— 10 and so as to make a distinction between the holy and the profane, and between the unclean and the clean,11 and so as to teach the sons of Israel all the statutes which the LORD has spoken to them through Moses.”
Notice that the LORD did not say NEVER drink wine or strong drink! This, I believe, is talking about making SURE that they never get intoxicated so that they teach the sons of Israel all the statutes which the LORD had spoken to them through Moses.
Ezekiel 44:21 “Nor shall any of the priests drink wine when they enter the inner court. 22 “And they shall not marry a widow or a divorced woman but shall take virgins from the offspring of the house of Israel, or a widow who is the widow of a priest. 23 “Moreover, they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and the profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
I believe that priests were to have observed special things that the rest of the Israelites did not have to observe BECAUSE of their priestly duties! Notice again it only says do not drink wine WHEN THEY ENTER THE INNER COURT!
Luke 7:31 And the Lord said Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation and to what are they like 32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace and calling one to another and saying We have piped unto you and ye have not danced we have mourned to you and ye have not wept 33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine and ye say He hath a devil 34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking and ye say Behold a gluttonous man and a winebibber a friend of publicans and sinners
I believe here it is OBVIOUS by the context of the verses that Jesus IS admitting he is drinking alcohol, because the CONTEXT is talking about WINE!
Habakkuk 2:15 “Woe to you who make your neighbors drink, Who mix in your venom even to make them drunk
So as to look on their nakedness!
Again, I believe it is OBVIOUS to those who do not have already preconceived notions about this issue that these verses are talking about a neighbor giving someone alcohol to make them DRUNK, and this is being done so that they may look at their nakedness!
1 Timothy 3:8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,
Ibelieve this is obviously talking about not given to ADDICTION of wine!
Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless as the steward of God not selfwilled not soon angry not given to wine no striker not given to filthy lucre 8 But a lover of hospitality a lover of good men sober just holy temperate
I believe not given to wine here would mean not that he doesn’t drink it, but that he doesn’t get intoxicated (given) with wine!
1 Corinthians 11:18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. 20 Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, 21 for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
Notice that Paul doesn’t condemn the alcohol, but says that it is not the Lord’s supper they are partaking in. Then he explains what it is all supposed to be about. Paul says, “do you not have houses in which to eat and drink?”
John 2: 9 When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom, 10 and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.”
Let’s see how to replace the word wine with grapejuice. “Every man serves good grapejuice first, then when people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer grapejuice; but you have kept the good grapejuice until now.” I guess they all must have been having the runs, since grapejuice is an excellent source of the mineral magnesium, which aides in the developement of bowel movements.
Jimmy finally says this: “Thank you for listening, You won’t hear from me again!”
This could be a blessing.
Now let’s look at some verses that should hopefully cause this fellow NOT to come back spewing his false doctrine.
Genesis
27:25 And he said, Bring it near to me, and I will eat of my son’s venison, that my soul may bless thee. And he brought it near to him, and he did eat: and he brought him wine and he drank.
27:28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:
27:37 And Isaac answered and said unto Esau, Behold, I have made him thy lord, and all his brethren have I given to him for servants; and with corn and wine have I sustained him: and what shall I do now unto thee, my son?
49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass’s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
49:12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
Exodus
29:40 And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.
23:13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
6:20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.
15:5 And the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering shalt thou prepare with the burnt offering or sacrifice, for one lamb.
15:7 And for a drink offering thou shalt offer the third part of an hin of wine, for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
15:10 And thou shalt bring for a drink offering half an hin of wine, for an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
18:12 All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given
thee.
18:27 And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress.
18:30 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor, and as the increase of the winepress.
28:7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.
28:14 And their drink offerings shall be half an hin of wine unto a bullock, and the third part of an hin unto a ram, and a fourth part of an hin unto a lamb: this is the burnt offering of every month throughout the months of the year.
Deuteronomy
7:13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
11:14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
12:17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:
14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
15:14 Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him.
16:13 Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine:
18:4 The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him.
28:39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.
28:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.
33:28 Israel then shall dwell in safety alone: the fountain of Jacob shall be upon a land of corn and wine; also his heavens shall drop down dew.
Joshua
9:4 They did work wilily, and went and made as if they had been ambassadors, and took old sacks upon their asses, and wine bottles, old, and rent, and bound up;
9:13 And these bottles of wine, which we filled, were new; and, behold, they be rent: and these our garments and our shoes are become old by reason of the very long journey.
Judges
6:11 And there came an angel of the LORD, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.
7:25 And they took two princes of the Midianites, Oreb and Zeeb; and they slew Oreb upon the rock Oreb, and Zeeb they slew at the winepress of Zeeb, and pursued Midian, and brought the heads of Oreb and Zeeb to Gideon on the other side Jordan.
9:13 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
19:19 Yet there is both straw and provender for our asses; and there is bread and wine also for me, and for thy handmaid, and for the young man which is with thy servants: there is no want of any thing.
1 Samuel
1:24 And when she had weaned him, she took him up with her, with three bullocks, and one ephah of flour, and a bottle of wine, and brought him unto the house of the LORD in Shiloh: and the child was young.
10:3 Then shalt thou go on forward from thence, and thou shalt come to the plain of Tabor, and there shall meet thee three men going up to God to Bethel, one carrying three kids, and another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a bottle of wine:
16:20 And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul.
25:18 Then Abigail made haste, and took two hundred loaves, and two bottles of wine, and five sheep ready dressed, and five measures of parched corn, and an hundred clusters of raisins, and two hundred cakes of figs, and laid them on asses.
2 Samuel
6:19 And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house.
16:1 And when David was a little past the top of the hill, behold, Ziba the servant of Mephibosheth met him, with a couple of asses saddled, and upon them two hundred loaves of bread, and an hundred bunches of raisins, and an hundred of summer fruits, and a bottle of wine.
16:2 And the king said unto Ziba, What meanest thou by these? And Ziba said, The asses be for the king’s household to ride on; and the bread and summer fruit for the young men to eat; and the wine, that such as be faint in the wilderness may drink.
2 Kings
6:27 And he said, If the LORD do not help thee, whence shall I help thee? out of the barnfloor, or out of the winepress?
18:32 Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards, a land of oil olive and of honey, that ye may live, and not die: and hearken not unto Hezekiah, when he persuadeth you, saying, The LORD will deliver us.
1 Chronicles
9:29 Some of them also were appointed to oversee the vessels, and all the instruments of the sanctuary, and the fine flour, and the wine, and the oil, and the frankincense, and the spices.
12:40 Moreover they that were nigh them, even unto Issachar and Zebulun and Naphtali, brought bread on asses, and on camels, and on mules, and on oxen, and meat, meal, cakes of figs, and bunches of raisins, and wine, and oil, and oxen, and sheep abundantly: for there was joy in Israel.
16:3 And he dealt to every one of Israel, both man and woman, to every one a loaf of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine.
27:27 And over the vineyards was Shimei the Ramathite: over the increase of the vineyards for the wine cellars was Zabdi the Shiphmite:
2 Chronicles
2:10 And, behold, I will give to thy servants, the hewers that cut timber, twenty thousand measures of beaten wheat, and twenty thousand measures of barley, and twenty thousand baths of wine, and twenty thousand baths of oil.
2:15 Now therefore the wheat, and the barley, the oil, and the wine, which my lord hath spoken of, let him send unto his servants:
11:11 And he fortified the strong holds, and put captains in them, and store of victual, and of oil and wine.
31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
32:28 Storehouses also for the increase of corn, and wine, and oil; and stalls for all manner of beasts, and cotes for flocks.
Ezra
6:9 And that which they have need of, both young bullocks, and rams, and lambs, for the burnt offerings of the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine, and oil, according to the appointment of the priests which are at Jerusalem, let it be given them day by day without fail:
7:22 Unto an hundred talents of silver, and to an hundred measures of wheat, and to an hundred baths of wine, and to an hundred baths of oil, and salt without prescribing how much.
Nehemiah
2:1 And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence.
5:11 Restore, I pray you, to them, even this day, their lands, their vineyards, their oliveyards, and their houses, also the hundredth part of the money, and of the corn, the wine, and the oil, that ye exact of them.
5:15 But the former governors that had been before me were chargeable unto the people, and had taken of them bread and wine, beside forty shekels of silver; yea, even their servants bare rule over the people: but so did not I, because of the fear of God.
5:18 Now that which was prepared for me daily was one ox and six choice sheep; also fowls were prepared for me, and once in ten days store of all sorts of wine: yet for all this required not I the bread of the governor, because the bondage was heavy upon this people.
10:37 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.
10:39 For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine, and the oil, unto the chambers, where are the vessels of the sanctuary, and the priests that minister, and the porters, and the singers: and we will not forsake the house of our God.
13:5 And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests.
13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.
13:15 In those days saw I in Judah some treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and lading asses; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals.
Job
1:13 And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother’s house:
1:18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother’s house:
Psalms
75:8 For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.
104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man’s heart.
Proverbs
3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Ecclesiastes
9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
10:19 A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.
Song of Solomon
1:2 Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine.
1:4 Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee.
4:10 How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!
5:1 I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey; I have drunk my wine with my milk: eat, O friends; drink, yea, drink abundantly, O beloved.
7:9 And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, causing the lips of those that are asleep to speak.
8:2 I would lead thee, and bring thee into my mother’s house, who would instruct me: I would cause thee to drink of spiced wine of the juice of my pomegranate.
Isaiah
1:22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
16:10 And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the vineyards there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses; I have made their vintage shouting to cease.
22:13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.
24:7 The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.
24:9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
24:11 There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.
25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
27:2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
36:17 Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards.
55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
56:12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.
62:8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:
65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants’ sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Jeremiah
13:12 Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
31:12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
40:10 As for me, behold, I will dwell at Mizpah, to serve the Chaldeans, which will come unto us: but ye, gather ye wine, and summer fruits, and oil, and put them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that ye have taken.
40:12 Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruits very much.
48:33 And joy and gladness is taken from the plentiful field, and from the land of Moab, and I have caused wine to fail from the winepresses: none shall tread with shouting; their shouting shall be no shouting.
Hosea
2:9 Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, and my wine in the season thereof, and will recover my wool and my flax given to cover her nakedness.
9:2 The floor and the winepress shall not feed them, and the new wine shall fail in her.
9:4 They shall not offer wine offerings to the LORD, neither shall they be pleasing unto him: their sacrifices shall be unto them as the bread of mourners; all that eat thereof shall be polluted: for their bread for their soul shall not come into the house of the LORD.
14:7 They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon.
Joel
1:10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.
2:19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
2:24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
Amos
5:11 Forasmuch therefore as your treading is upon the poor, and ye take from him burdens of wheat: ye have built houses of hewn stone, but ye shall not dwell in them; ye have planted pleasant vineyards, but ye shall not drink wine of them.
9:13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
9:14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
Micah
2:11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.
6:15 Thou shalt sow, but thou shalt not reap; thou shalt tread the olives, but thou shalt not anoint thee with oil; and sweet wine, but shalt not drink wine.
Zephaniah
1:13 Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.
Haggai
1:11 And I called for a drought upon the land, and upon the mountains, and upon the corn, and upon the new wine, and upon the oil, and upon that which the ground bringeth forth, and upon men, and upon cattle, and upon all the labour of the hands.
Zechariah
9:15 The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
9:17 For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.
10:7 And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD.
14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
Matthew
9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Luke
5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
John
2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
4:46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.
Ephesians
5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
1 Timothy
3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.
Titus
1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
1 Peter
4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
What I have learned from Jimmy is what is described in 1 Timothy 4:1-5
If scripture says God blesses us with wine, then if another scripture SEEMS to say the opposite, it cannot. Scripture MUST conform to other scripture, otherwise we get all sorts of false doctrines and errors. Jimmy is willing to strain out ALL verses that afirm drinking wine or strong drink in moderation as good to find and twist scripture that SEEMS like it could indicate otherwise. To these people this scripture seems very applicable:
777denny
Jimmy,
Don’t you have bigger fish to fry than this?
Snap out of it, man!
Dan,
Those that preach or teach one or more of the false doctrines I have mentioned.
Thanks for listening,
777denny
What church are you a member of Denny
Dan,
I do not belong to a body of believers who are violating any of the doctrines I have pointed out in this entry.
Do you know of any body of believers that do not violate any of these doctrines I have set forth in this blog?
I am curious as to why you are asking me this question.
Thank you for listening,
777denny
You haven’t answered my question
Denny, I am back! I ‘am sorry I told you I wouldn’t be back, but you brought me back by saying “Now let’s look at some verses that should hopefully cause this fellow NOT to come back spewing his false doctrine. This could be blessing.” I just can’t let you say that about me and not make a stand for God’s word! “And if I say, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name, then there is in my heart as it were a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I am weary with forbearing, and I cannot (contain)” Jeremiah 20:9
Denny keeps preaching moderation, drinking wine or strong drink is alright as long as it is used not excessively and causes a man to disgrace himself or fall into a drunken rage.
Notice his arguments: He goes on quotes Leviticus 10:8-10 and says, “Notice that the LORD did not say NEVER drink wine or strong drink! That the same argument Satan used in the Garden of Eden with Eve: “But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die” (Gen. 3:3-4). Do you see the connection? Satan added the word NOT and Denny adds the word NEVER. Denny, it is extremely dangerous to add to God’s Word, and the eternal curse rests upon all who do so (Revelation 22:18, 19).
Let use this argument of Denny and practice it on other passages. First Denny quotes Leviticus 10:9: “Drink no wine nor strong drink.” Again Denny says, “Notice that the LORD did not say NEVER drink wine or strong drink!” Okay, let’s used this same argument on other passages Denny. Exodus 20:3, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Now listen here is Denny’s argument: Notice that the LORD did not say NEVER have other gods before me.” So by Denny’s argument it’s alright to have other gods and be pleasing to the Lord. Let’s do again in Exodus 34:14, “For thou shalt worship no other god: for Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.” Again, notice Denny’s argument: Notice that the LORD did not say NEVER worship an other god. So by Denny’s argument it is pleasing to God to worship other gods.
He uses the same argument in Titus 1:7, “A bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre.” Again notice how Denny adds to God’s Word: I believe not given to wine here would mean not that he doesn’t drink it, but that he doesn’t get intoxicated (given) with wine!” I don’t know about you, but if God says “not given to wine; “tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, or Thou shalt not commit adultery, He means NOT! “Add thou not unto his words, Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar” (Prov. 30:6).
One wonder in that same context of Titus 1:7 Denny, “Not selfwilled” or “not given to filthy lucre” Do you believe not here would mean not he doesn’t quit doing this, but he can do it in moderation?
Alcohol enslaves millions by addiction, encourages crime and spills blood on the highways, but Denny will cling to the quip, “the Bible condemns drunkenness, but it doesn’t condemn drinking.” And by that he means the Bible condones the “moderate” drinking of hard drink: wine, beer and whiskey. But does it?
Reading of the Bible shows that “wine” in Scripture does not always mean an alcoholic beverage. In fact, the word “wine” in the word of God is a generic term whose meaning must be determined by the context. Other words are the same, e.g., the word “soul” in Josh. 10:28 is used to mean “life” that can be destroyed by a man, while in Matt. 10:28 it is used to mean the eternally existing part of man which man cannot destroy. The context tells the difference.
It is the same with wine. For example, Gen. 9:20-21 shows that “wine” was an alcoholic beverage, which made Noah drunk; but Isa. 16:10 shows that “wine” was the fresh juice from the press. It says, “no treader shall tread out wine in the presses” (cf. Jer. 48:33).
There are thirteen words from the Hebrew and Greek texts which are translated in English as wine. The eleven Hebrew words are [chemer], [chamar], [yayin], [yegeb], [mimsak], [sobe], [enab], [asis], ~shekhar], [shemarim], and [tirosh]. The two Greek words are [gleukos] and [oinos]. Only three of the Hebrew words and one Greek word are really pertinent to our study.
Of the 196 times “wine” is found in the English Old Testament, 180 of these are: [yayin] (141), [tirosh] (38) and [shekhar] (1). The latter of these is important to our study because it is usually translated strong drink (21 times).
The Hebrew word [yayin] is the word most often used for wine in the Old Testament. Young’s Analytical Concordance gives (besides “wine”) for [yayin] “what is pressed out, grape juice.” The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says, “[yayin], apparently from a non-Semetic root allied to Greek [w]oinos, Latin vinum, etc. This is the usual word for `wine’ and is found 141 times in the Masoretic Text (Hebrew Text).” Thus, we see the definitions of the word indicate both alcoholic grape juice and non-alcoholic.
The Scriptures plainly show this, i.e., [yayin] was used for alcoholic juice of the grapes and for non-alcoholic juice. For example, in the text (Gen. 9:21) it says Noah “drank of the wine [yayin], and was drunken.” But in Jer. 48:33 we read, “I have caused wine [yayin] to cease from the winepresses: none shall treat with shouting.” Thus we see that the Scripture’s use of [yayin] is a generic word which must be defined by the context.
The second most often used Hebrew word which is translated, wine, is [tirosh]. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says, “[tirosh]: Properly this is fresh grape juice. LXX (the Septuagint) always (except Isa. 65:8; Hos. 4:11) translates (it) by [oinos] …. “James Strong defines [tirosh]: “must or fresh grape juice as just squeezed out by implication (rarely) fermented. Wine: — (new, sweet) wines.”
In the Scriptures it plainly means new wine, i.e., grape juice or must. For example, Isa. 65:8 says, “As the new wine [tirosh] is found in the cluster.” Again, Prov. 3:10, “Thy vats shall overflow with new wine [tirosh],” [tirosh] is only used in a bad sense one time (Hos. 4:11) and probably means evil through lust of it, in this text, rather than through alcohol content.
Finally, let us look at [shekhar] from the Hebrew. This word is translated wine in only one place (Num. 28:7) where it reads “strong wine.” In all other places (21) it is translated “strong drink.” Of the translation “strong drink,” Burton Scott Easton says, “the translation `strong drink’ is unfortunate for it suggests (to modern man) `distilled liquor,’ `brandy,’ which is hardly in point.” This is true because the ancients knew nothing of the processes of distillation and shekhar included drinks like “pomegranate-wine, palm-wine, apple-wine, honey-wine, perhaps even beer, for some identify it with the liquor obtained from barley by the Egyptians.”
Finally in this word study on wine let us look at the Greek word [oinos]. Thayer says of [oinos] in the “Septuagint for [yayin], also for [tirosh] (”must, new wine”), [chemar], etc.; wine.” Robert Young in his Concordance says of the New Testament use of [oinos], “wine, grape juice.” Thus, we see that [oinos] is used in the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint) to translate the generic Hebrew word [yayin] which means the juice of grapes at various stages (wine or must; fresh, new or old). But [oinos] is also used to translate the Hebrew [tirosh], which definitely means fresh juice of the grapes, must, or new wine (non-alcoholic). [Oinos] which is used for wine 28 of the 29 times wine is found in the New Testament is defined as: wine, must, grape juice or new wine.
Right here perhaps I should define the English word “must.” Webster’s New Twentieth Century Dictionary defines it “must, Latin mustum, new wine, neuter of mustus, new, fresh. Juice pressed from the grape, but not yet fermented into wine.” “Must” as you can see very well expresses one major definition of wine in the Bible, which is the juice of grapes not yet fermented or rarely fermented. It probably expresses the use of oinos far better than the word “wine” with the modern concept of it being strong drink or an alcoholic beverage.
For example, in John 2 Jesus made approximately 120 gallons of wine for wedding guests who had already been drinking, If this was strong drink (alcoholic wine) instead of the must of grapes (non-alcoholic wine) Jesus would have been tempting them to drunkenness. Besides this, Jesus prior to His incarnation, declared “Woe unto him that giveth his neighbor drink, to thee that addest thy venom (alcohol is a poison), and makest him drunken also…” (Hab. 2:15). Did Jesus violate this injunction? He did not. The context on this occasion shows it had to be the kind of wine God called a blessing, i,e., non-alcoholic wine, “must.”
The sum of what we are saying is this: wine does not always mean an alcoholic beverage or hard drink in the Bible. Very often it means the juice of grapes or must and it is declared to be a gift from God or a blessing as in Prov. 3:10. “So shall thy barns be filled with plenty and thy vats shall overflow with new wine.” Again Isa. 65:8 says, “As the wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, destroy it not, for a blessing is in it.” However, on the other hand, wine is declared to be a curse. Prov. 4:17 says, “They drink the wine of violence,” and Prov. 20:1 says, “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler.”
Thus we see there are two basic types of wine in the Scriptures, one good and one bad. One will bless and one will curse. Nor is this so strange for in God’s Word we read of good spirits and bad spirits — angels and demons.
Again the Bible does not leave us in the dark about making the distinction as when to drink wine (non-alcoholic, must, grape juice) and when not to drink wine (fermented liquor) for it says, “Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it sparkleth in the cup, when it goes down smoothly: at the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder” (Prov. 23:31-32). This is clearly a scriptural statement for God-fearing people not to look on or use wine after it has gone through the process of vinous fermentation by which alcohol is produced and it bites like a serpent.
Therefore, in light of the fact that the Word of God distinguishes between good wine (non-alcoholic) and bad wine (alcoholic) and condemns the latter, we must deny that God condones the drinking of alcoholic wine or any other hard liquor even in moderation.
What I have learned from Denny is he likes to try to find loopholes in God’s word that would justify his drinking alcohol. NO, can’t do it!
Since Jimmy seems to be twisting scripture as an art form, I thought it best to reintroduce him to what I have already provided. Notice that Jimmy is very zealous, but not zealous enough to find the TRUTH. He builds his entire contention on facetious and fallacious arguments that do not alter the basic facts of the truth involved, but instead twist the logic of the whole debate. He then just simply regurgitates the same old scriptures with the same old arguments, as if when he repeats them enough times, it will persuade.
BTW, Jimmy, a WINEPRESS is to press grapes to make WINE!
And Jimmy still hasn’t addressed the FACT that ALL denominations used WINE until the advent of Welches grape juice!
Noah Webster’s Dictionary
1. (n.) The expressed juice of grapes, esp. when fermented; a beverage or liquor prepared from grapes by squeezing out their juice, and (usually) allowing it to ferment.
2. (n.) A liquor or beverage prepared from the juice of any fruit or plant by a process similar to that for grape wine; as, currant wine; gooseberry wine; palm wine.
3. (n.) The effect of drinking wine in excess; intoxication.
Int. Standard Bible Encyclopedia
WINE; WINE PRESS
win, win’-pres:
I. Terms.
1. Wine:
(1) (yayin), apparently from a non-Tsere root allied to Greek oinos, Latin vinum, etc. This is the usual word for “wine” and is found 141 times in Massoretic Text.
(2) chemer, perhaps “foaming” (Deuteronomy 32:14 and Massoretic Text Isaiah 27:2 (but see the English Revised Version margin)); Aramaic chamar (Ezra 6:9; Ezra 7:22 Daniel 5:1, 2, 4, 23).
(3) tirosh. Properly this is the fresh grape juice (called also mishreh, Numbers 6:3), even when still in the grape (Isaiah 65:8). But unfermented grape juice is a very difficult thing to keep without the aid of modern antiseptic precautions, and its preservation in the warm and not over-cleanly conditions of ancient Palestine was impossible. Consequently, tirosh came to mean wine that was not fully aged (although with full intoxicating properties (Judges 9:13 Hosea 4:11; compare Acts 11:13)) or wine when considered specifically as the product of grapes (Deuteronomy 12:17; Deuteronomy 18:4, etc.). The Septuagint always (except Isaiah 65:8 Hosea 4:11) translates by oinos and the Targums by chamar. the King James Version has “wine” 26 times, “new wine” 11 times, “sweet wine” in Micah 6:15; the Revised Version (British and American) “vintage” in Numbers 18:12 Micah 6:15 (with the same change in Nehemiah 10:37, 39 the Revised Version margin; Isaiah 62:8 the English Revised Version margin). Otherwise the English Revised Version has left the King James Version unchanged, while the American Standard Revised Version uses “new wine” throughout.
(4) Two apparently poetic words are `acic (the Revised Version (British and American) “sweet wine,” Isaiah 49:26 Amos 9:13 Joel 1:5; Joel 3:18, “juice”; Songs 8:2), and cobhe’ (”wine,” Isaiah 1:22; “drink,” Hosea 4:18 (margin “carouse”); Nahum 1:10).
(5) For spiced wine three words occur: mecekh, Psalm 75:8 (English Versions of the Bible “mixture”); mimcakh, Proverbs 23:30 (”mixed wine”); Isaiah 65:11 (the Revised Version (British and American) “mingled wine”); mezegh, Songs 7:2 (the Revised Version (British and American) “mingled wine”); compare also yayin hareqach, Songs 8:2 (”spiced wine”).
(6) mamethaqqim, literally, “sweet,” Nehemiah 8:10.
(7) shekhar (22 times), translated “strong drink” in English Versions of the Bible. Shekhar appears to mean “intoxicating drink” of any sort and in Numbers 28:7 is certainly simply “wine” (compare also its use in parallelism to “wine” in Isaiah 5:11, 22, etc.). In certain passages (Leviticus 10:9 Numbers 6:3 1 Samuel 1:15, etc.), however, it is distinguished from “wine,” and the meaning is not quite certain. But it would seem to mean “drink not made from grapes.” Of such only pomegranate wine is named in the Bible (Songs 8:2), but a variety of such preparations (made from apples, quinces, dates, barley, etc.) were known to the ancients and must have been used in Palestine also. The translation “strong drink” is unfortunate, for it suggests “distilled liquor,” “brandy,” which is hardly in point.
Many of the ancient wine presses remain to the present day. Ordinarily they consisted of two rectangular or circular excavations, hewn (Isaiah 5:2) in the solid rock to a depth of 2 or 3 feet. Where possible one was always higher than the other and they were connected by a pipe or channel. Their size, of course, varied greatly, but the upper vat was always wider and shallower than the lower and was the press proper, into which the grapes were thrown, to be crushed by the feet of the treaders (Isaiah 63:1-3, etc.). The juice flowed down through the pipe into the lower vat, from which it was removed into jars (Haggai 2:16) or where it was allowed to remain during the first fermentation.
Many modifications of this form of the press are found. Where there was no rock close to the surface, the vats were dug in the earth and lined with stonework or cement, covered with pitch. Or the pressvat might be built up out of any material (wood was much used in Egypt), and from it the juice could be conducted into a sunken receptacle or into jars. Not infrequently a third (rarely a fourth) vat might be added between the other two, in which a partial settling and straining could take place. Wooden beams are often used either to finish the pressing or to perform the whole operation, and holes into which the ends of these beams fitted can still be seen. A square of wood attached to the beam bore down on the pile of grapes, while the free end of the beam was heavily weighted. In the simpler presses the final result was obtained by piling stones on the mass that remained after the treaders had finished their work.
3. Grading:
It is a general principle of wine-making (compare that “the less the pressure the better the product”; therefore the liquid that flowed at the beginning of the process, especially that produced by the mere weight of the grapes themselves when piled in heaps, was carefully kept separate from that which was obtained only under heavy pressure. A still lower grade was made by adding water to the final refuse the mixture to ferment. Possibly this last concoction is sometimes meant by the word “vinegar” (chomets).
4. Fermentation:
In the climate of Palestine fermentation begins almost immediately, frequently on the same day for juice pressed out in the morning, but never later than the next day. At first a slight foam appears on the surface of the liquid, and from that moment, according to Jewish tradition, it is liable to the wine-tithe (Ma`aseroth 1 7). The action rapidly becomes more violent, and while it is in progress the liquid must be kept in jars or in a vat, for it would burst even the newest and strongest of wine-skins (Job 32:19). Within about a week this violent fermentation subsides, and the wine is transferred to other jars or strong wine-skins (Mark 2:22 and parallel’s), in which it undergoes the secondary fermentation. At the bottom of the receptacles collects the heavier matter or “lees” (shemarim, Psalm 75:8 (”dregs”); Jeremiah 48:11; Zechariah 1:12 in Isaiah 25:6 the word is used for the wine as well), from which the “wines on the lees” gather strength and flavor.
At the end of 40 days it was regarded as properly “wine” and could be offered as a drink offering (`Edhuyyoth 6 1). The practice after this point seems to have varied, no doubt depending on the sort of wine that was being made. Certain kinds were left undisturbed to age “on their lees” and were thought to be all the better for so doing, but before they were used it was necessary to strain them very carefully. So Isaiah 25:6, `A feast of wine aged on the lees, thoroughly strained.’ But usually leaving the wine in the fermentation vessels interfered with its improvement or caused it to degenerate. So at the end of 40 days it was drawn off into other jars (for storage, 1 Chronicles 27:27, etc.) or wine-skins (for transportation, Joshua 9:4, etc.). So Jeremiah 48:11: `Moab has been undisturbed from his youth, and he has rested on his lees and has not been emptied from vessel to vessel….. Therefore his flavor remains unchanged (or “becomes insipid”) and his scent is unimproved (or “lacks freshness”)’; compare Zechariah 1:12.
5. Storage:
Jars were tightly sealed with caps covered with pitch. The very close sealing needed to preserve sparkling wines, however, was unknown to the Hebrews, and in consequence (and for other reasons) such wines were not used. Hence, in Psalm 75:8, “The wine foameth,” the allusion must be to very new wine whose fermentation had not yet subsided, if indeed, the translation is not wrong (the Revised Version margin “The wine is red”). The superiority of old wine to new was acknowledged by the Hebrews, in common with the rest of the world (Sirach 9:10; Luke 5:39), but in the wines of Palestine acetous fermentation, changing the wine into vinegar, was likely to occur at any time. Three years was about the longest time for which such wines could be kept, and “old wine” meant only wines that had been, stored for a year or more (Bab. Bath. 6 3).
See also CRAFTS, II, 19.
III. Use of Wine.
1. Mixed Wine:
In Old Testament times wine was drunk undiluted, and wine mixed with water was thought to be ruined (Isaiah 1:22). The “mixed” or “mingled wines” (see I, 1, (5), above) were prepared with aromatic herbs of various sorts and some of these compounds, used throughout the ancient world, were highly intoxicating (Isaiah 5:22). Wine mixed with myrrh was stupefying and an anesthetic (Mark 15:23). At a later period, however, the Greek use of diluted wines had attained such sway that the writer of 2 Maccabees speaks (15:39) of undiluted wine as “distasteful” (polemion). This dilution is so normal in the following centuries that the Mishna can take it for granted and, indeed, R. Eliezer even forbade saying the table-blessing over undiluted wine (Berakhoth 7 5). The proportion of water was large, only one-third or one-fourth of the total mixture being wine (Niddah 2 7; Pesachim 108b).
NOTE.
The wine of the Last Supper, accordingly, may be described in modern terms as a sweet, red, fermented wine, rather highly diluted. As it was no doubt the ordinary wine of commerce, there is no reason to suppose that it was particularly “pure.”
2. Wine-Drinkinig:
Throughout the Old Testament, wine is regarded as a necessity of life and in no way as a mere luxury. It was a necessary part of even the simplest meal (Genesis 14:18 Judges 19:19 1 Samuel 16:20 Isaiah 55:1, etc.), was an indispensable provision for a fortress (2 Chronicles 11:11), and was drunk by all classes and all ages, even by the very young (Lamentations 2:12 Zechariah 9:17). “Wine” is bracketed with “grain” as a basic staple (Genesis 27:28, etc.), and the failure of the winecrop or its destruction by foreigners was a terrible calamity (Deuteronomy 28:30, 39 Isaiah 62:8; Isaiah 65:21 Micah 6:15 Zephaniah 1:13, etc.). On the other hand, abundance of wine was a special token of God’s blessing (Genesis 27:28 Deuteronomy 7:13 Amos 9:14, etc.), and extraordinary abundance would be a token of the Messianic age (Amos 9:13 Joel 3:18 Zechariah 9:17). A moderate “gladdening of the heart” through wine was not looked upon as at all reprehensible (2 Samuel 13:28 Esther 1:10 Psalm 104:15 Ecclesiastes 9:7; Ecclesiastes 10:19 Zechariah 9:15; Zechariah 10:7), and while Judges 9:13 represented a mere verbal remnant of a long-obsolete concept, yet the idea contained in the verse was not thought shocking. “Drink offerings,” indeed, were of course a part of the prescribed ritual (Leviticus 23:13, etc.; see SACRIFICE), and a store of wine was kept in the temple (tabernacle) to insure their performance (1 Chronicles 9:29). Even in later and much more moderate times, Sirach writes the laudation of wine in 31:27, and the writer of 2 Maccabees (see above) objects as strongly to pure water as he does to pure wine. Christ adapted Himself to Jewish customs (Matthew 11:19 parallel Luke 7:34 Luke 22:18), and exegetes usually suppose that the celebrated verse 1 Timothy 5:23 is meant as a safeguard against ascetic (Gnostic?) dualism, as well as to give medical advice.
This is from wcg.org – alcohol/biblwine
Naturally fermented wine is between 10 percent and 14 percent alcohol. Higher alcoholic wines are fortified wines. On such special occasions God even allowed use of what is translated as “strong drink.” This term comes from a different Hebrew word—shekar—which is used 22 times in the Old Testament, and refers to alcoholic drinks made from dates and other fruit.
The high alcoholic drinks called hard liquor today (40 percent to 50 percent alcohol, or 80 to 100 proof) did not exist in Bible times. They are produced by distilling grain-based mash or material from other vegetable sources. They did not come into widespread use until the Middle Ages.
. (Liqueurs, flavored and sweetened distilled liquors, are somewhat different in that they are usually served in small amounts and sipped slowly.)
A blessing of wine was prophesied as a heritage to the chosen people in Genesis 27:28: “Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine [tirosh].” The Hebrew word tirosh, meaning “new wine,” is used in 38 places in the Old Testament. People sometimes conclude that this word means grape juice, or fresh-pressed juice of the vine. However, Hosea 4:11 states: “Whoredom and wine [yayin} and new wine [tirosh] take away the heart.” Grape juice could not have this effect. Tirosh is an intoxicating wine if used in excess.
John the Baptist did not drink wine (oinos in the Greek) or any other form of alcohol because it was prophesied that he wouldn’t (Luke 1:15). However, Jesus Christ did drink oinos (wine) (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:34). Jesus did not preach against the use of wine; instead he did like most other Jews of his day. He drank wine in moderation. In ancient times it was normally diluted with water for drinking, and was one of the principal beverages in Palestine at that time—as it is today.
Jesus’ first miracle was to change water into wine (oinos). Some people who preach total abstinence claim that this miracle was to turn water into grape juice. Nonsense! Imagine if you can an elaborate Jewish wedding banquet where everyone drank only grape juice! (The ancients did not have refrigeration or any other method of preventing grape juice from fermenting.)
On this occasion Christ turned six jars of 20 or 30 gallons each into wine (oinos). This was no small miracle. This wine was of the finest quality— “You have kept the good wine until now” (John 2:10). At such wedding feasts, after people had drunk the better wine, the hosts brought out lesser-quality wines.
Jesus gave a parable involving the fermenting process of oinos in Matt. 9:17. At that time, instead of having metal or glass bottles to enclose wine, the skins of animals were used. The fermentation of the wine would break an old inelastic skin, but it would not break a new stretchable skin.
Another proof that oinos is fermented wine is the fact that the apostle Paul said, “Be not drunk with wine [oinos]” (Eph. 5:18). Paul did not mean to avoid getting drunk on grape juice! Paul instructed Timothy, “Drink no longer water, but use a little wine [oinos] for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities” (1 Tim. 5:23). He said to use only a little wine, not a whole lot. The purpose of this wine was Timothy’s frequent stomach ailments; small amounts of wine can help some stomach problems.
Some of the Corinthians Christians were getting drunk at the Lord’s Supper (1 Cor. 11:21). They were using fermented wine, probably following the example that Paul had set for them. Paul did not tell them that they were using the wrong kind of wine. He simply told them to eat and drink at home, and to participate in the Lord’s Supper in a respectful way. In Romans 14:21, Paul says that it is good not to drink wine or eat meat if it offends a weak brother. He is referring to fermented wine; grape juice wouldn’t offend anyone. The implication is that there’s nothing wrong with the wine in itself, only if it offends a weak brother.
Abuse, drunkenness condemned
Both the Old and New Testaments contain many examples and commands against excessive use of alcohol and drunkenness. Drunkenness is listed as one of the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:21). That means it is the result of the undisciplined, indiscriminate use of alcohol. Jesus warned his followers not to be drunk (Luke 21:34).
The apostle Paul told the Corinthian church to “put away from among yourselves”—to have no fellowship—with a person who cannot control his or her drinking (1 Cor. 5:11-13). This refers to people who will not face up to or try to overcome drinking problems, not people who are working on and overcoming their problems. The Bible says that drunkards will not enter the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-10, Gal. 5:21). No one who abuses alcohol should be ordained an elder in the ministry of Jesus Christ (1 Tim. 3:3, 8, Tit. 1:7). If a minister drinks, it should be in moderation.
Throughout the Bible, God criticizes those who are “mighty to drink” (Isa. 5:22). Excessive drinkers are committing an evil (Prov. 23:20-21, Isa. 28:1-8). The improper use of wine makes wine a mocker and deceiver (Prov. 20:1). Those who “tarry long over wine” and spend a great deal of time in drinking will find all kinds of woe, sorrow and trouble (Prov. 23:29-30).
Outstanding antiseptic
Jesus showed he knew the benefits of wine as an antiseptic when he gave the parable of the good Samaritan. In this case a man had been injured and had a severe wound. The good Samaritan “bound up his wounds, pouring in [olive] oil and wine [oinos]” (Luke 10:34). The oil mollified or softened the flesh; the wine helped kill bacteria.
This is from refbible.com – Wine
The common Hebrew word for wine is yayin, from a root meaning “to boil up,” “to be in a ferment.” Others derive it from a root meaning “to tread out,” and hence the juice of the grape trodden out. The Greek word for wine is oinos_, and the Latin _vinun. But besides this common Hebrew word, there are several others which are thus rendered.
`Asis, “sweet wine,” or “new wine,” the product of the same year (Cant. 8:2; Isaiah 49:26; Joel 1:5; 3:18; Amos 9:13), from a root meaning “to tread,” hence juice trodden out or pressed out, thus referring to the method by which the juice is obtained. The power of intoxication is ascribed to it.
Hemer, Deuteronomy 32:14 (rendered “blood of the grape”) Isaiah 27:2 (”red wine”), Ezra 6:9; 7:22; Dan. 5:1, 2, 4. This word conveys the idea of “foaming,” as in the process of fermentation, or when poured out. It is derived from the root hamar, meaning “to boil up,” and also “to be red,” from the idea of boiling or becoming inflamed.
Mesekh, properly a mixture of wine and water with spices that increase its stimulating properties (Isaiah 5:22). Psalm 75:8, “The wine [yayin] is red; it is full of mixture [mesekh];” Proverbs 23:30, “mixed wine;Isaiah 65:11, “drink offering” (R.V., “mingled wine”).
Tirosh, properly “must,” translated “wine” (Deuteronomy 28:51); “new wine” (Proverbs 3:10); “sweet wine” (Micah 6:15; R.V., “vintage”). This Hebrew word has been traced to a root meaning “to take possession of” and hence it is supposed that tirosh is so designated because in intoxicating it takes possession of the brain. Among the blessings promised to Esau (Genesis 27:2 mention is made of “plenty of corn and tirosh.” Palestine is called “a land of corn and tirosh” (Deuteronomy 33:28; Comp. Isaiah 36:17). See also Deuteronomy 28:51; 2 Chronicles 32:28; Joel 2:19; Hosea 4:11, (”wine [yayin] and new wine [tirosh] take away the heart”).
Shekar, “strong drink,” any intoxicating liquor; from a root meaning “to drink deeply,” “to be drunken”, a generic term applied to all fermented liquors, however obtained. Numbers 28:7, “strong wine” (R.V., “strong drink”). It is sometimes distinguished from wine, c.g., Leviticus 10:9, “Do not drink wine [yayin] nor strong drink [shekar];” Numbers 6:3; Judges 13:4, 7; Isaiah 28:7 (in all these places rendered “strong drink”). Translated “strong drink” also in Isaiah 5:11; 24:9; 29:9; 56:12; Proverbs 20:1; 31:6; Micah 2:11.
Shemarim (only in plural), “lees” or “dregs” of wine. In Isaiah 25:6 it is rendered “wines on the lees”, i.e., wine that has been kept on the lees, and therefore old wine.
Mesek, “a mixture,” mixed or spiced wine, not diluted with water, but mixed with drugs and spices to increase its strength, or, as some think, mingled with the lees by being shaken (Psalm 75:8; Proverbs 23:30).
In Acts 2:13 the word gleukos, rendered “new wine,” denotes properly “sweet wine.” It must have been intoxicating.
In addition to wine the Hebrews also made use of what they called debash which was obtained by boiling down must to one-half or one-third of its original bulk. In Genesis 43:11 this word is rendered “honey.” It was a kind of syrup, and is called by the Arabs at the present day dibs. This word occurs in the phrase “a land flowing with milk and honey” (debash), Exodus 3:8, 17; 13:5; 33:3; Leviticus 20:24; Numbers 13: 27. (see HONEY.)
A drink-offering of wine was presented with the daily sacrifice (Exodus 29:40, 41), and also with the offering of the first-fruits (Leviticus 23:13), and with various other sacrifices (Numbers 15:5, 7, 10). Wine was used at the celebration of the Passover. And when the Lord’s Supper was instituted, the wine and the unleavened bread then on the paschal table were by our Lord set apart as memorials of his body and blood.
Easton’s Bible Dictionary
The common Hebrew word for wine is yayin, from a root meaning “to boil up,” “to be in a ferment.” Others derive it from a root meaning “to tread out,” and hence the juice of the grape trodden out. The Greek word for wine is oinos_, and the Latin _vinun. But besides this common Hebrew word, there are several others which are thus rendered.
(1.) Ashishah (2 Samuel 6:19; 1 Chronicles 16:3; Cant. 2:5; Hosea 3:1), which, however, rather denotes a solid cake of pressed grapes, or, as in the Revised Version, a cake of raisins.
(2.) `Asis, “sweet wine,” or “new wine,” the product of the same year (Cant. 8:2; Isaiah 49:26; Joel 1:5; 3:18; Amos 9:13), from a root meaning “to tread,” hence juice trodden out or pressed out, thus referring to the method by which the juice is obtained. The power of intoxication is ascribed to it.
(3.) Hometz. See VINEGAR.
(4.) Hemer, Deuteronomy 32:14 (rendered “blood of the grape”) Isaiah 27:2 (”red wine”), Ezra 6:9; 7:22; Dan. 5:1, 2, 4. This word conveys the idea of “foaming,” as in the process of fermentation, or when poured out. It is derived from the root hamar, meaning “to boil up,” and also “to be red,” from the idea of boiling or becoming inflamed.
(5.) `Enabh, a grape (Deuteronomy 32:14). The last clause of this verse should be rendered as in the Revised Version, “and of the blood of the grape [`enabh] thou drankest wine [hemer].” In Hosea 3:1 the phrase in Authorized Version, “flagons of wine,” is in the Revised Version correctly “cakes of raisins.” (Comp. Genesis 49:11; Numbers 6:3; Deuteronomy 23:24, etc., where this Hebrew word is rendered in the plural “grapes.”)
(6.) Mesekh, properly a mixture of wine and water with spices that increase its stimulating properties (Isaiah 5:22). Psalm 75:8, “The wine [yayin] is red; it is full of mixture [mesekh];” Proverbs 23:30, “mixed wine;Isaiah 65:11, “drink offering” (R.V., “mingled wine”).
(7.) Tirosh, properly “must,” translated “wine” (Deuteronomy 28:51); “new wine” (Proverbs 3:10); “sweet wine” (Micah 6:15; R.V., “vintage”). This Hebrew word has been traced to a root meaning “to take possession of” and hence it is supposed that tirosh is so designated because in intoxicating it takes possession of the brain. Among the blessings promised to Esau (Genesis 27:2 mention is made of “plenty of corn and tirosh.” Palestine is called “a land of corn and tirosh” (Deuteronomy 33:28; Comp. Isaiah 36:17). See also Deuteronomy 28:51; 2 Chronicles 32:28; Joel 2:19; Hosea 4:11, (”wine [yayin] and new wine [tirosh] take away the heart”).
(8.) Sobhe (root meaning “to drink to excess, ” “to suck up, ” “absorb”), found only in Isaiah 1:22, Hosea 4:18 (”their drink;” Gesen. and marg. of R.V., “their carouse”), and Nahum 1:10 (”drunken as drunkards;” lit., “soaked according to their drink;” R.V., “drenched, as it were, in their drink”, i.e., according to their sobhe).
(9.) Shekar, “strong drink,” any intoxicating liquor; from a root meaning “to drink deeply,” “to be drunken”, a generic term applied to all fermented liquors, however obtained. Numbers 28:7, “strong wine” (R.V., “strong drink”). It is sometimes distinguished from wine, c.g., Leviticus 10:9, “Do not drink wine [yayin] nor strong drink [shekar];” Numbers 6:3; Judges 13:4, 7; Isaiah 28:7 (in all these places rendered “strong drink”). Translated “strong drink” also in Isaiah 5:11; 24:9; 29:9; 56:12; Proverbs 20:1; 31:6; Micah 2:11.
(10.) Yekebh (Deuteronomy 16:13, but in R.V. correctly “wine-press”), a vat into which the new wine flowed from the press. Joel 2:24, “their vats;3:13, “the fats;” Proverbs 3:10, “Thy presses shall burst out with new wine [tirosh];” Haggai 2:16; Jeremiah 48:33, “wine-presses;” 2 Kings 6:27; Job 24:11.
(11.) Shemarim (only in plural), “lees” or “dregs” of wine. In Isaiah 25:6 it is rendered “wines on the lees”, i.e., wine that has been kept on the lees, and therefore old wine.
(12.) Mesek, “a mixture,” mixed or spiced wine, not diluted with water, but mixed with drugs and spices to increase its strength, or, as some think, mingled with the lees by being shaken (Psalm 75:8; Proverbs 23:30).
In Acts 2:13 the word gleukos, rendered “new wine,” denotes properly “sweet wine.” It must have been intoxicating.
In addition to wine the Hebrews also made use of what they called debash, which was obtained by boiling down must to one-half or one-third of its original bulk. In Genesis 43:11 this word is rendered “honey.” It was a kind of syrup, and is called by the Arabs at the present day dibs. This word occurs in the phrase “a land flowing with milk and honey” (debash), Exodus 3:8, 17; 13:5; 33:3; Leviticus 20:24; Numbers 13: 27. (see HONEY.)
Our Lord miraculously supplied wine at the marriage feast in Cana of Galilee (John 2:1-11). The Rechabites were forbidden the use of wine (Jeremiah 35). The Nazarites also were to abstain from its use during the period of their vow (Numbers 6:1-4); and those who were dedicated as Nazarites from their birth were perpetually to abstain from it (Judges 13:4, 5; Luke 1:15; 7:33). The priests, too, were forbidden the use of wine and strong drink when engaged in their sacred functions (Leviticus 10:1, 9-11). “Wine is little used now in the East, from the fact that Mohammedans are not allowed to taste it, and very few of other creeds touch it. When it is drunk, water is generally mixed with it, and this was the custom in the days of Christ also. The people indeed are everywhere very sober in hot climates; a drunken person, in fact, is never seen”, (Geikie’s Life of Christ). The sin of drunkenness, however, must have been not uncommon in the olden times, for it is mentioned either metaphorically or literally more than seventy times in the Bible.
A drink-offering of wine was presented with the daily sacrifice (Exodus 29:40, 41), and also with the offering of the first-fruits (Leviticus 23:13), and with various other sacrifices (Numbers 15:5, 7, 10). Wine was used at the celebration of the Passover. And when the Lord’s Supper was instituted, the wine and the unleavened bread then on the paschal table were by our Lord set apart as memorials of his body and blood.
Several emphatic warnings are given in the New Testament against excess in the use of wine (Luke 21:34; Romans 13:13; Ephesians 5:18; 1 Timothy 3:8; Titus 1:7).
I would say thank you for listening, but I don’t really think you have ears to hear – except for what you want to hear.
777denny
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